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The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

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Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#151
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand how this needs anything beyond surface level complexity… you have fat people who for show reasons were tightly controlled on exercise and food intake - which works for well understood reasons - then they took that away and left the people to their lifelong established habits. Of course they regain the weight. These people didn’t magically create mass from nothing. They ate too much for their activi…

Welcome to weight loss discussion on HN, where any rational point like "eat less" or "calories in, calories out" gets downvoted and discussed to death. Apparently for this crowd taking medicines is better than stopping stuffing yourself, because you know, if you take a medicine you can keep stuffing yourself. Oh, and also "it's more complicated than that" is always a nice escape from the harsh reality of thermodynami…

> if you take a medicine you can keep stuffing yourself

That’s not at all how these new medicines work. You can’t (well, don’t) keep stuffing yourself on Wegovy (Ozempic) and Zepbound (Mounjaro), because you no longer spend all your time wanting to. These drugs work by switching off your desire to stuff yourself, not by allowing you to stuff yourself without weight gain. When you eat a big meal on these medicines, you feel satisfied and over-full, rather than like an addict who just got a partial hit and wants to ride it.

I take an immensely helpful SSRI for GAD, that no amount of mindfulness, therapy, or healthy living seemed to touch. I take a GLP-1 agonist for a food compulsion I’ve had for 25 years and couldn’t shake. I never got properly fat, but fighting a desire to EAT ALL THE FOOD no longer occupies 50% of my mental energy.

Have you ever come off nicotine? If so, you’ll know the little voice in your head that is continually telling you that you should have a cigarette for the first few days. You can’t shut it up. Hey, have a cigarette. You know what’s be good right now? A cigarette. Oh you just woke up? Have a cigarette. It fades eventually for nicotine. In my experience, and, in that of many/most fat people, you have that constantly for food, that food noise. GLP-1 agonists turn the food noise off.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#152
post #77

Thoughts on Adenoviruses as being a root cause of obesity? https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/weight-loss-genetics-obesit... "Interestingly, animal studies show that the gain in fat mass is not due to eating more or moving less… Animals ate the same amount of chow, but those infected with adenovirus 36 increased fat tissue by 60-80%." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17135605/ "A 2004 twin study showed that the Ad-36 an…

It may be a contributing factor in some cases. The study published in Obesity you link says the adenovirus affects insulin, leptin, and corticosterone. An important note about the third item: "In many species, including amphibians, reptiles, rodents and birds, corticosterone is a main glucocorticoid, involved in regulation of energy, immune reactions, and stress responses. However, in humans, cortisol is the primary…

A lot of viral infections impact cortisol in humans. Infection tends to ramp up cortisol levels, but prolonged or chronic infection can both deplete cortisol (so called adrenal fatigue) and/or make the body more resistant to the effects of cortisol. This is seen in the extreme in the case of HIV. I assume cortisol resistance is analogous to insulin resistance in prediabetics. Apparently chronic stress can have similar effects. And chronic stress may be associated with chronic viral reactivation. [1]

Great comment! Interestingly, depleted cortisol levels from chronic stress may be associated with the development of long covid. [2] I wonder if down the road we will see that people who have had long covid are at increased risk of developing or exacerbating obesity.

[1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8470332/

[2] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9519365/

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Encountering someone with a serious anorexic eating disorder, or watching a loved one with cancer -- who was formerly slim and healthy -- whither away their insufficient fat reserves while under treatment... can put things in an entirely different perspective. My mild obesity doesn't seem so bad now. I'd rather have a little too much and be fine with it... than be psychologically tortured by it, or not have enough in…

In those two case, sure extra weight seems like a positive. But have back problems? Or leg issues? And that extra weight will make you even less mobile. Can't move? That'll get you bed sores and perhaps eventually an infection. The body didn't evolve to carry so much extra weight. You're on the wrong side of history.

Don't bring history into this!

In any case, thousands of years of evolution, boom and bust cycles of metabolism, show that having excess fat stores is very, very useful when you have to go months without regular sustenance. Those are the people we're descended from, not the ones who have "fast" metabolisms. It leads to problems later in life, sure, but not before one reproduces!

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#154

A shift in understanding the metabolism has been gradually occurring since the 1990s with the isolation of leptin. What is leptin? Discovered in 1994, leptin is a hormone that signals the availability of energy reserves in the body. "High leptin levels are interpreted by the brain that energy reserves are high, whereas low leptin levels indicate that energy reserves are low", the latter causing the body to enter a re…

> This approach is generally referred to the calorie-in/calorie-out (CICO) model. While true to an extent, this perspective is too simplistic, given one key fact: leptin is primarily produced in adipose tissue [1]. This fact means body fat is actually an endocrine system organ. This part I think needs more explanation. The reason calories-in/calories-out model is too simplistic (I would call it almost useless if not…

CICO works quite well at the extremes. It's effectiveness varies, but it is directionally correct.

If someone is sitting at a 35+ BMI, then their caloric intake is so out of whack, that CICO helps ground them. Similarly, an anorexic who starves gets a clear directive for increasing weight by increasing calories.

CICO also promotes calorie general calorie comparison. It helps you understand that a milkshake has the same weight impact as an average Mediterranean lunch bowl.

Now the absolute impact on both foods will vary from person to person. But comparatively, it helps ground the unhealthiness of foods like sugar rich shakes and icecream.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#155

Metabolic damage is mostly a myth. Fat, muscle, and activity burn calories. If you lose weight you’re probably burning fewer calories unless you replace it with muscle. Activity levels also vary over our lives. We tend to be more active when we’re younger.

an extra 10 pounds of muscle, which is average for someone who has never trained, maybe burns only 100 extra calories. The problem also is that muscle hypertrophy also entails gaining some fat too.

100 kcal is ~0.5 kg of fat per month, or 6 kg per year.

Read that again. Six kilograms, per year. Every year.

Given a person consuming near their total daily energy expenditure, that’s the difference between losing almost 20 kg since the start of COVID, and gaining 20 kg.

Small changes over time compound in unintuitive ways, which is all the more reason not to dismiss them so flippantly.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#156
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, straying from thermodynamics is wrong. Human fat holds around 8000Kcal per Kg. Stop eating altogether. Every the 8000th Kcal more or less you would have lost 1Kg of fat.

There’s the issue of not being able to decide what gets burnt. I’ve read that under certain circumstances, the body can actually burn the muscles faster than it burns the fat. Which obviously makes exercise harder.

Why would the body touch anything else when it has a preferential energy storage?

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whoosh That was the sound of you zooming right past my argument and pretending I was saying something I wasn’t. I’m not saying CICO is a good idea. I’m not saying it’s healthy. I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m not saying it will have a high chance of success vis a vis people actually being able to stick with it. I’m merely saying IF you do it right, THEN you will lose weight. This is trivially and tautologically true (t…

This is something I've said repeatedly in other places and this is a certain segment of people who can't understand it. CICO is, especially at the population level, terrible dieting advice. We have decades of experience and oodles of research showing that, as advice it does not work. However, it is, as you point out, basically tautologically true/correct. For CICO to _not_ be correct would essentially be breaking phy…

CICO makes me pay attention.

Pay attention to what I eat and how often I exercise.

I rarely actually count, but I do lower calories when I look at a label and say OMG. Like, who knew a shake was 2000 calories? Hmm, fries only 500. I just switch and cut my calories by 1500. I’m so good, I deserve these fries! Yum.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A BMI of 16 is very rare. It's unlikely it was always that low for him. Assuming someone starts with a BMI of 22-24 and then diets to get it to 16, this would likely would req. fewer than 1900 even if the calculator says so, due to metabolic adaption and the breakdown of the calculations at extremes .

Of course it would take less than 1900 to get there. But it would take around 1900 to stay there, according to our models of basal metabolic rates. And it turns out that this person stays there at 1900, so our conclusion is that the BMR model we're using fits this data point. It's possible that for some people at such extremes commonly available models would break down, but clearly for this person, they haven't. And…

no, Rae is truly exceptional. Other calorie-restrictors eat far less and weigh more ,even controlling for height

https://www.webmd.com/diet/features/restrict-calories-revive...

"I eat the same thing twice a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year," says Pomerleau, of his diet of 1,200 calories a day. "It's a lot of veggies with olive oil-based salad dressing, a lot of mixed fruits, almonds and hazelnuts, and flaxseed oil for omega-3 fatty acids."

https://archive.is/e345S#selection-4235.216-4239.443

.Bob Cavanaugh, a 54-year-old landscaper from Morehead, N.C., has trimmed his intake to two meals a day, totaling 1,500 calories. Breakfast consists of one cup of quick oats, two tablespoons of toasted wheat germ, one cup of skim milk and blueberries. For dinner, he eats vegetables, fruit and a small portion of fish. "I'm hoping to see my great, great grandchildren," he says. Mr. Cavanaugh's diet may sound extreme, particularly since at 5-feet 9-inches tall and 158 pounds, he isn't overweight. But over the next several years, if the monkey results hold up, they could represent a major shift in how we view food and nutrition. The U.S. Department of Agriculture says the average sedentary woman should eat 1,600 calories a day and the average man 2,200 -- benchmarks already significantly overshot by most Americans.

and a third guy https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW8oScgXsAAVqeg.jpg

A bmi of 21, nowhere close to 16 despite eating fewer calories (1700)

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#159
I'm a participant in runner groups. I was surprised to meet several exceptional runners with stories of moving from very unhealthy/overweight to their current level of marathoner+. Several of them had success not just with intermittent fasting, but prolonged fasting. Humans can run when they feel like you have no energy.

It's hard to believe that this isn't a psychological and behavioral issue: >A 30 percent reduction in caloric intake results in a 30 percent decrease in caloric expenditure.

Often times I find it difficult to run or exercise, a lot of times I don't feel like I have the energy. Especially when fasting. I've fasted 7 days and run 3+ miles every day until I had no glucose left in my body. I've never met anybody doing prolonged fasting, distance running and a 100% commitment who couldn't transform their bodies. There may be some rare cases out there of individuals with severe disease/diagnosed health disorders, that's between someone and their doctor. For the rest, are they 100% committed? If you feel like this is you, please reach out, would love to talk and connect with you.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#160
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowledge of leptin changes this because what you eat does actually matter. The goal should be intermittent fasting, where you eat little-to-no carbs about five consecutive days/week and then plenty of carbs two consecutive days/week. This approach ensures leptin levels in the obese body remain high enough to prevent onset of starvation mode while minimizing glucose levels to promote catabolic action on body fat [1].…

You focus on carbs specifically, but IF is about all calories being eliminated for periods, and it doesn’t necessarily mean you eat plenty on the break days (if you take break days at all - some people exist on 16:8 or 20:4 or whatever perpetually). I think you have something important here but the wording is ambiguous and I am wondering if you can clarify your thinking? Are you saying only carbs matter with respect…

Thanks for asking. I'll first explain the process (because I want to highlight why IF matters), and then I'll answer your question directly. It's going to take a little bit to properly elaborate, but I believe it's worth your time to read.

We first need to choose which of the following macronutrients contribute most to weight gain: protein, fat, or carbohydrates. Proteins (or, rather, amino acids) are not known for contributing to body fat in any significant manner. Fat was once thought to be the main contributor when calories--not carbohydrates--became accepted as fattening. However, modern science shows fat has little significant contribution to body fat and that the real contributor to body fat are carbohydrates. The discovery of leptin about 30 years ago finally shows why.

Carbs are sugars. Sugars, such as glucose, are the main source of fuel in the body, as they are eventually synthesized into ATP. Blood glucose levels are regulated by the hormone insulin. Elevated blood glucose levels increases insulin production, whereas low blood glucose decreases insulin production (with glucagon helping stabilize blood glucose levels). High insulin levels promotes anabolism, whereas low insulin levels promotes catabolism. Creating body fat is an anabolic process, whereas burning body fat is a catabolic process. Putting it all together, eating carbs inhibits the essential catabolic processes for burning fat.

While entirely cutting out carbs should be the answer, it's not. Many obese people report failure to lose weight on ketogenic diets. Why? The hormone leptin. See, leptin levels increase with insulin levels. Leptin signals the availability of energy reserves in the body. Adipose tissue (that is, body fat) is the primary producer of leptin. Importantly, leptin levels vary exponentially with body fat. The obese individual's body is so oversaturated with leptin, the body becomes resistant to leptin.

Decreased leptin levels will cause body fat to be burned. On a ketogenic diet, catabolic processes initially cause a reduction in body fat, which then decreases leptin production. Because the obese body has leptin resistance, the leptin production decrease is interpreted by the brain as a severe drop in available energy reserves, causing total energy expenditure to be immediately reduced and placing the body in "starvation mode." At this point, eliminating body fat actually becomes more difficult, as excess carbs become anabolized into body fat due to decreased energy expenditures.

So, to finally get to your question, how do carbs matter with respect to leptin? To lose weight over months and years, an obese person needs to eat carbs to (1) keep their leptin levels stable over the course of each week to prevent the body from entering starvation mode while (2) maximizing the efficacy of catabolic processes. As the body gradually recovers from its leptin resistance (which will likely take time), the body will shed fat without triggering the energy-minimization mode.

In this paradigm, your total energy expenditure determines how fast fat will be burned. According to the book "The Obesity Code", "total energy expenditure is the sum of basal metabolic rate, thermogenic effect of food, nonexercise activity thermogenesis, excess post-exercise oxygen consumption [(EPOC),] and exercise". Of these five factors, EPOC is mostly likely underutilized. A simple 10-minute HIIT routine every other day will regularly drive EPOC, which causes ATP synthesis. When an person isn't eating carbs, the body dips into fat stores to acquire the necessary glucose for ATP synthesis. Note that with this approach, exercise isn't strictly necessary but becomes extremely beneficial to maximize the efficacy of catabolic processes.

Intermittent fasting should work as long as the specific protocol doesn't decrease leptin levels such that the obese body enters starvation mode. In my opinion, the most workable approach for people is to try their best to completely eliminate carbs Monday-Friday, eat all the carbs they want on the weekends, and do the bare minimum of a 10-minutes HIIT routine every other day.

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