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The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

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Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This approach is generally referred to the calorie-in/calorie-out (CICO) model. While true to an extent, this perspective is too simplistic, given one key fact: leptin is primarily produced in adipose tissue [1]. This fact means body fat is actually an endocrine system organ. This part I think needs more explanation. The reason calories-in/calories-out model is too simplistic (I would call it almost useless if not…

CICO doesn’t work across individuals for reason you outline (just because I lose weight with a certain level of calories, doesn’t mean you will, etc.) But for a single individual, working to establish your base metabolic rate by counting every calorie and weighing yourself regularly, you can always find a way to be successful with the CICO model. If you establish a baseline that your metabolic rate is (say) 2000 calo…

This is the dogma that I'm talking about.

> If you establish a baseline that your metabolic rate is (say) 2000 calories a day, then eating 1600 calories a day will cause you to lose roughly a half-pound to a pound per week.

At this point it's pretty safe to say that's likely untrue at the population level. This is a cutting edge area of research but the UCP1 adaptations seems to happen really fast, for some people on the order of weeks. On the order of months for the vast majority of the population. It doesn't take long for the basal rate to fall to whatever your intake is because the system evolved to naturally have a lot of room to spare. The human body always adapts and if I were a gambling man, I'd say this is largely why most people fail at dieting: after a month or two the results stop and they have to further decrease their intake which interferes with other pathways and tanks motivation.

If it works for you, that's great! You're one of the lucky ones, maybe because you've hit your floor for uncoupling proteins. But given just how hard dieting is for most people and how bad the obesity epidemic has gotten, it's probably not useful for the majority of people. A far more holistic approach that tackles macro- and micronutrient deficiency, motivation, lifestyle, and not just net calories is required.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CICO doesn’t work across individuals for reason you outline (just because I lose weight with a certain level of calories, doesn’t mean you will, etc.) But for a single individual, working to establish your base metabolic rate by counting every calorie and weighing yourself regularly, you can always find a way to be successful with the CICO model. If you establish a baseline that your metabolic rate is (say) 2000 calo…

Knowledge of leptin changes this because what you eat does actually matter. The goal should be intermittent fasting, where you eat little-to-no carbs about five consecutive days/week and then plenty of carbs two consecutive days/week. This approach ensures leptin levels in the obese body remain high enough to prevent onset of starvation mode while minimizing glucose levels to promote catabolic action on body fat [1].…

It sounds like any other of these diets that tell you when and how to eat but not how much. I’m pretty sure I could gain weight when doing everything you describe, if I eat really terribly during the days I eat “plenty of carbs”.

The key to CICO is that you’re actually measuring not just the calories you eat, but the weight you gain/lose, and are continually calibrating. If my diet jacks up my leptin levels such that I don’t lose weight, that will show up on the scale, and I have to adjust my calories down to compensate. With this system I am guaranteed to lose weight so long as I don’t cheat. This is trivially true: the calibration could technically push you all the way to zero calories per day (which will never happen in practice, obviously.)

Case in point, I lost 50 lbs with this approach, eating McDonald’s nearly every single day. I kept it off for roughly 8 years. (I since became a dad and have let myself go tremendously, gaining ~30lbs back, but I will cross that bridge soon.)

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CICO doesn’t work across individuals for reason you outline (just because I lose weight with a certain level of calories, doesn’t mean you will, etc.) But for a single individual, working to establish your base metabolic rate by counting every calorie and weighing yourself regularly, you can always find a way to be successful with the CICO model. If you establish a baseline that your metabolic rate is (say) 2000 calo…

This is the dogma that I'm talking about. > If you establish a baseline that your metabolic rate is (say) 2000 calories a day, then eating 1600 calories a day will cause you to lose roughly a half-pound to a pound per week. At this point it's pretty safe to say that's likely untrue at the population level. This is a cutting edge area of research but the UCP1 adaptations seems to happen really fast, for some people on…

> It doesn't take long for the basal rate to fall to whatever your intake is because the system evolved to naturally have a lot of room to spare

All this is accounted for in this sentence of my post:

> your base metabolic rate also changes as your weight does, so re-baselining by continually measuring caloric intake and your weight to recalibrate is always going to be necessary

If you’re actually measuring yourself at the scale to get the ground truth of your actual metabolic rate, and you’re doing this every single day, then there isn’t a single thing that can change this: UCP1 adaptations, fat viruses, leptin changes, hormones, stress… all of this is covered by the actual weight on the scale. If I ate X calories and gained Y lbs, I need to adjust my calories by Z, no matter the reason I gained those pounds.

You can argue that such a diet is too hard, and that for some people the adjustment to your calories is going to leave you essentially starving, but it doesn’t change the truth of the matter that it will work if you do it right. Now, whether it’s worth it for people, and whether the process is going to leave you utterly miserable or even extremely unhealthy as a result, I’m making no claim on.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CICO doesn’t work across individuals for reason you outline (just because I lose weight with a certain level of calories, doesn’t mean you will, etc.) But for a single individual, working to establish your base metabolic rate by counting every calorie and weighing yourself regularly, you can always find a way to be successful with the CICO model. If you establish a baseline that your metabolic rate is (say) 2000 calo…

Knowledge of leptin changes this because what you eat does actually matter. The goal should be intermittent fasting, where you eat little-to-no carbs about five consecutive days/week and then plenty of carbs two consecutive days/week. This approach ensures leptin levels in the obese body remain high enough to prevent onset of starvation mode while minimizing glucose levels to promote catabolic action on body fat [1].…

You focus on carbs specifically, but IF is about all calories being eliminated for periods, and it doesn’t necessarily mean you eat plenty on the break days (if you take break days at all - some people exist on 16:8 or 20:4 or whatever perpetually). I think you have something important here but the wording is ambiguous and I am wondering if you can clarify your thinking?

Are you saying only carbs matter with respect to leptin?

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#95
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait. What this analysis seems to suggest is that the exercise (as long as it is a significant increase) actually encourages metabolic adaption.

Yeah I saw. But you'll see that the Biggest Loser contestants chased weight-loss on a very aggressive timeline. They have a steep deficit, and relatively high intensity exercise regimen. Which could just further exacerbate the effects of a steep deficit. At any rate, all of them had lastingly bad metabolic adaptation, even if those who exercised more had it worse. In other studies (alluded to here as those where part…

> At any rate, all of them had lastingly bad metabolic adaptation, even if those who exercised more had it worse.

Yes, but as I read it, they all lastingly changed the level of exercise they were getting, and the extent of the "bad" metabolic adaptation seemed to correlate strongly with how big of a lasting change they made in exercise.

> In other studies (alluded to here as those where participants don't undergo anything so extreme), exercise is both a strong predictor of long-term weight-loss success, and can dampen metabolic adaptation (since more muscle and good cardiovascular shape boosts metabolism, usually).

Yes, trading fat for muscle increases your baseline caloric consumption, but that's not the same as long-term weight-loss.

I'm curious about what studies you've seen, because I've seen several other studies that suggest the opposite: that diet is a stronger predictor than exercise of long-term weight-loss success, and this analysis suggests that the more exercise the more likely it is that it will feed in to metabolic adaptation.

> I'm not sure what the lesson is yet, but I would hazard that, in the long-term, it's more important to sustain tracking energy balance (sustainability of your diet is #1). Moderate exercise can probably help, but perhaps it should also be sustainable, and in that capacity there are rapidly diminishing returns to intensity of exercise (and perhaps going hard and then quitting is a risk factor for weight regain).

My speculation is that the lesson is that in general there are diminishing returns from having a caloric deficit, regardless of the means to achieve it. Which fits with the idea that it is easier succeed with small, lasting changes than to create a more significant deficit for a shorter period of time. It would explain the insane failure rate of the weight loss industry, which for obvious reasons needs to show significant short-term results.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#96
post #76
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, low leptin levels causes the body to enter starvation mode, and hardcore dieting causes leptin levels to drop further. What about fasting? Dr Jason Fung wrote a book about fasting that IIRC says that it does not cause starvation mode.

Agree, straying from thermodynamics is wrong. Human fat holds around 8000Kcal per Kg. Stop eating altogether. Every the 8000th Kcal more or less you would have lost 1Kg of fat.

It's not always going to be fat.

The dramatic weight loss induced by GLP-1's demonstrates that.

We're seeing a disproportionate amount of lean muscle mass loss.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowledge of leptin changes this because what you eat does actually matter. The goal should be intermittent fasting, where you eat little-to-no carbs about five consecutive days/week and then plenty of carbs two consecutive days/week. This approach ensures leptin levels in the obese body remain high enough to prevent onset of starvation mode while minimizing glucose levels to promote catabolic action on body fat [1].…

It sounds like any other of these diets that tell you when and how to eat but not how much. I’m pretty sure I could gain weight when doing everything you describe, if I eat really terribly during the days I eat “plenty of carbs”. The key to CICO is that you’re actually measuring not just the calories you eat, but the weight you gain/lose, and are continually calibrating. If my diet jacks up my leptin levels such that…

>If my diet jacks up my leptin levels such that I don’t lose weight, that will show up on the scale, and I have to adjust my calories down to compensate.

>With this system I am guaranteed to lose weight so long as I don’t cheat.

Unfortunately, that's just not true. Here's some great quotes from the book "The Obesity Code" (which I've just recently found and find an excellent book):

>The abrupt increase in obesity began exactly with the officially sanctioned move toward a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet.

>A 30 percent reduction in caloric intake results in a 30 percent decrease in caloric expenditure.

>Total energy expenditure is the sum of basal metabolic rate, thermogenic effect of food, nonexercise activity thermogenesis, excess post-exercise oxygen consumption and exercise.

>Since hormones control both Calories In and Calories Out, obesity is a hormonal, not a caloric, disorder.

>If hormones regulate fat growth, then obesity is a hormonal, not a caloric disorder.

>Sugar will increase the blood glucose level and provoke an insulin response from the pancreas. Olive oil will not...[cause] significant increase in blood glucose or insulin. The two different foods evoke vastly different metabolic and hormonal responses."

All of this is to say that it's not enough to simply adjust calories. Yes, calories matter to a point, and everyone knows that starvation (e.g., 0 calories for an extended period of time) is effective in the long-term, but starvation will also harm your body, and no reasonably-minded person can suggest it as a viable approach to weight loss.

The best available scientific evidence shows that continuing to decrease caloric intake can make weight loss more difficult for an obese person.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like any other of these diets that tell you when and how to eat but not how much. I’m pretty sure I could gain weight when doing everything you describe, if I eat really terribly during the days I eat “plenty of carbs”. The key to CICO is that you’re actually measuring not just the calories you eat, but the weight you gain/lose, and are continually calibrating. If my diet jacks up my leptin levels such that…

>If my diet jacks up my leptin levels such that I don’t lose weight, that will show up on the scale, and I have to adjust my calories down to compensate. >With this system I am guaranteed to lose weight so long as I don’t cheat. Unfortunately, that's just not true. Here's some great quotes from the book "The Obesity Code" (which I've just recently found and find an excellent book): >The abrupt increase in obesity beg…

whoosh

That was the sound of you zooming right past my argument and pretending I was saying something I wasn’t.

I’m not saying CICO is a good idea. I’m not saying it’s healthy. I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m not saying it will have a high chance of success vis a vis people actually being able to stick with it. I’m merely saying IF you do it right, THEN you will lose weight. This is trivially and tautologically true (to the point of CICO being useless to most people!), but it’s extremely tiring having to explain it over and over that it still works despite all of this.

To put it another way: there are two operative definitions of “works” for a diet:

1. Will it work if you do it exactly as directed?

2. Is a typical dieter likely to have success by attempting this diet?

CICO fails miserably at 2. It passes with flying colors at 1. Its best not to conflate the two definitions in the middle of an argument because you end up talking right past one another.

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It requires that complexity because a metric shit ton of scientific research shows that it is more complicated than that. Permanent weight loss of more than ten pounds is nearly impossible from a scientific standpoint. The success rate after 5 years of weight loss is somewhere around 0.1%. You'd think that if it was as easy as everyone claims, more people would succeed. Heck, many people who have had gastric bypass s…

Do you have a citation on that 0.1%? I'd love to learn more.

The number one in a thousand is simply a ballpark figure that is frequently used in nutritional science. There are literally hundreds of papers, and not all of them are good (you should look at the parameters because many of them are quite lax), but here are a few examples easily found online.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/030646...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/(SICI)1098-1...

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07315724.1999.10...

https://europepmc.org/article/med/2663745

Re: The biggest losers: Metabolic damage or constrained energy?

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CICO doesn’t work across individuals for reason you outline (just because I lose weight with a certain level of calories, doesn’t mean you will, etc.) But for a single individual, working to establish your base metabolic rate by counting every calorie and weighing yourself regularly, you can always find a way to be successful with the CICO model. If you establish a baseline that your metabolic rate is (say) 2000 calo…

This is the dogma that I'm talking about. > If you establish a baseline that your metabolic rate is (say) 2000 calories a day, then eating 1600 calories a day will cause you to lose roughly a half-pound to a pound per week. At this point it's pretty safe to say that's likely untrue at the population level. This is a cutting edge area of research but the UCP1 adaptations seems to happen really fast, for some people on…

Renaissance Periodization just did a video on calorie cycling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwZfryrVddY (the video is titled carb cycling, which he dismissed in the first few minutes and he moves on to calorie cycling) and in it he discusses some of the benefits and disadvantages of calorie cycling vs just eating at a deficit.

The tl;dr is follow your body (e.g. not sleeping well, exhausted all the time, eat more for a bit), but try starting out around 2:1 for eating a fair bit under vs slightly above maintenance. (e.g. diet 6 days, eat a bit extra for 3 days, repeat).

In another video he also mentions that after weight loss, that it is a good idea to slowly increase calories until the scale doesn't move, and then eat at that level for a few weeks to reset the body's hunger signaling. (I am dramatically simplifying there).

> The human body always adapts and if I were a gambling man, I'd say this is largely why most people fail at dieting: after a month or two the results stop and they have to further decrease their intake which interferes with other pathways and tanks motivation.

This is why "cheat days" or even "cheat weeks" work. People are on a strict diet, weight loss stalls, they go on vacation and eat at a surplus for a bit, and then they find that after vacation they are able to resume losing weight.

Likewise a big thing in Keto awhile back (not sure now) was cycling off Keto for the weekend, which unless a person is very careful, ends up with people eating at least a little bit to "excess".

Plenty of people do "lazy keto" and eat a big Sunday family meal and so long as the excess calories on Sunday don't exceed the sum total of deficits from the other 6 days, they'll be A-OK, and now it turns out they may actually be better off.

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