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Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

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171–180 of 204 posts

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#171

Something to be aware of as a computer person coming into biology: Biology only _looks_ like it has logical constructs, abstraction layers, and general computational frameworks. When you start working with it, you'll find everything is messier than you expected and everything interacts with everything at every level. There are no abstractions, there are no actual boundaries, and your outputs are subject to evolutiona…

So, basically like the legacy code base at any large enterprise :D

Years ago, someone here on HN compared evolution of the DNA to the evolution of large-scale code bases. This really stuck with me. One example that was brought up was: There is no single region in the DNA that's responsible for the human eye. More generally: The mapping between phenotype and genotype tends to be fuzzy and the individual role and impact of genes is often unclear. Now in a somewhat similar way, in large code bases the mapping between features and code can also become fuzzy, and the role of a single line of code can be surprising. There can be side effects and a ton of implicit/hidden dependencies across the code base, maybe even spooky action at a distance. As a result, product features will no longer be confined to individual code files or modules. Rather, their exact logic will spread out all across the code base, and a single line of code can affect many features at once.

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#172
post #134

Something to be aware of as a computer person coming into biology: Biology only _looks_ like it has logical constructs, abstraction layers, and general computational frameworks. When you start working with it, you'll find everything is messier than you expected and everything interacts with everything at every level. There are no abstractions, there are no actual boundaries, and your outputs are subject to evolutiona…

As a biologist who moved into software engineering I love working with actual machines. You can think of a design, build it and have it work as you expect. You can’t do that in biology. The reason is that we “understand” how computers work. Our understanding of biology is nowhere near that level. A high percentage of established knowledge is wrong or so incomplete that it’s not useful for designing new systems. This…

Wondering if there would be an "easier" way to express something in biology/evolution, then the evolution would (already) compressed it like that.

Maybe by definition: current existing things in evolution are not "more compressable" (for us) without losing meaning? (Their meaning could be estimated though through -leaky- abstractions?)

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are intelligent. But we could get an equally-intelligent reply out of ChatGPT. Ergo, it's also intelligent.

Yeah no, that's bullshit. It's like saying my laptop emits sound, meaning it can sing.

[deleted]

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#174
Programming languages typically operate in middle of one higher/ one lower order level of logic.

DNA describes hyperbolic multi-level of logic.

The lowest level programming language (assembly) is designed to

map/correspond/translate directly to hardware electronic bits.

Where, cpu emulates version of turing machine on assembly instructions.

And cpu/hardware is under control of OS ( post-pc boot strap ).

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The mapping between hardware & assembler may static (compiled) or

interpreted in real-time into a sequence of boolean AND's and OR's.

At the assembly programming language level, the programming language

'TERMINAL' construct is 1:1 with hardware. Such abstractions typically

conveyed using BNF and/or various calculi such epsilon and lambda.

As one progresses through higher level programming lanugages, have to

work one's way through more and more non-ternmal instructions (aka grammar)

to get to just the TERMINAL value to access that 1:1 mapping to 'run'.

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Given constraints on article length, going to reduce the bodies hyperbolic geometry

descriptions down to a simplified analytic geometric analogy via bodies largest organ -- the skin.

Can look at the skin as mobious strip where, gi tract is internal side compliment of external skin.

Organs can be views as klein bottle chained together & interact/influence each other (per flow through

klein bottle opening and/or perfusion of klein bottle surface.

Scaling down the cline bottle to cell & simplfied 2d spread sheet -- side a, side b and how progress between a & b.

The external/internal enzymes, dna, vitimins/minerals etc influence what happens on the spreadsheet

via dna bnf / 4 symbol autonoma system and/or L-system.

internal function calls equivalent to specific inter-cel functions per triggered by cell resources.

Obviously, organs/cells need 'external function calls/libraries' to work, which are not covered here.

While loops / if loops defined by enzyme/protines/etc created by dna interpretations. aka

while enough protine a exist -> create enzyme b. IF enzyme asdf exists -> create protine 1234

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So, dna can be viewed as a type of turing machine aka has if / while / etc.. forms of expression.

the rest of the body is just a lambda calculi / epsion calculi / process calclui interpreter/executor.

DNA as the ultimate hyperbolic turing paper tape version of the Zark king[0]

The unbounded creaping feature creature take to the extreme over a few millenea.

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[0] : https://manybutfinite.com/post/the-thing-king/

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#175
The question is misleading because computation is not an objective phenomenon in nature (save in the minds of observers). You can interpret natural phenomena computationally, sure, and there may well be a way to do this with DNA (in fact, some have done that). But there's no computation "out there". Even the computer in front of you isn't objectively computing. It behaves in a way that corresponds with a computational interpretation, but nothing going on inside of it is a computation operation per se.

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#176
post #9

> There are no equivalents of function calls. All events happen is the same space and there is always a likelihood of interference. Proof that code with all functions inlined, with only global variables, with bugs and happy accidents all over the place, eventually gains sentience and becomes self aware.

Maybe that's the true way how to create an AGI...

We are the AGI :)

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#177
post #10

Related to the first answer: Tim Blais on youtube has made a catchy "edutainment" song [1] on molecular machines based on A. Leigh's research (eg [2]) with some cool animations that show how electrochemical "switches" can encode a binary state, which one could (in principle) use to build logic gates. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObvxPSQNMGc [2]: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chemrev.5b00146

There is this 2021 paper where they constructed a logic OR gate protein:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26937-x

Some companies are planning to use them when designing drugs: "only activate this if both antibodies bind"

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#178
post #20

Well, DNA might not have programming structures, but it acts like a neural network. See "Gene regulatory network" > Some proteins though serve only to activate other genes, and these are the transcription factors that are the main players in regulatory networks or cascades. By binding to the promoter region at the start of other genes they turn them on, initiating the production of another protein, and so on. Some tr…

Synthetic biologist here. This is a good answer, but looking at man-made genetic programs can give us a simplified perspective. We've made significant progress engineering programs that enable human T cells to kill target (cancer) cells _conditionally_ based on their surface marker expression [1]. This is in contrast to conventional CAR-T cells which are already on the market (see Kymriah, etc.). A simple AND gate T…

Sounds exciting, but also a little scary.

I'm imagining a biological variant of eg. Verilog or VHDL, as this seems like the kind of domain where tools that allow for formal verification would be highly desirable.

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#179

I'm pretty sure something this complex came from a higher order being. That whole order from chaos argument is not holding water for me with this degree of complexity.

And that complex higher order being came from where?

No idea, but the math says there have to be way more dimensions than we can interact with, so I'm thinking it's a higher dimensional being that we can't interact with. It/they would have to enter our dimension to communicate with us.

Re: Does DNA have the equivalent of IF-statements, WHILE loops, or function calls?

#180
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, Gene Regulatory Network [1] works very differently from Biological Neural Circuits [2]. Finally, Perceptron used in computers [3] is based on arithmetic operations and is again different from any of those two biological mechanisms. However, perceptron appears to be a good tool to model functions that depends on a large number of parameters. What we may infer from that is that after a lot of ti…

To me it seems like the fundamental idea is still the same. You have nodes that are connected to each other with strengths that can change according to feedback and complicated logic emerges from that. That seems like almost fundamental emergent idea that is behind all the intelligence in the World. It seems to allow for intelligence to occur, without this type of concept everything would just be random and chaotic.…

> That seems like almost fundamental emergent idea that is behind all the intelligence in the World.

That is indeed quite nice, yet intelligence seems much more diverse in biological organisms and not always reduced to nodes and edge strengths. The nodes and edges are a way to store data and to modify it that seems particularly well adapted mechanisms based on electricity.

On the other hand, there exists other very different (and slower) biological intelligent mechanisms that are not based on electricity. For example, a tree is perfectly adapted to its environment, capable of taking energy from the sun, materials from the ground, transform it, and so on. Yet the intelligent mechanism that created trees is not based on neural networks as far as I understand it. In this mechanism, the data is stored in DNA, and DNA can be rewriten at each new generation. It is a completely different (and slower) approach.

Finally I agree that the emergence of fast intelligence through neural network is incredible, although for me the first impressive advance is the use of the electricity to speed up the information exchange. The arrangements in nodes and edges could follow naturally from the fact that the transmission of electric signals works better through 1D circuits. The second impressive advance is the way the networks are layered. This is critical and very difficult to have an arrangement of edges and nodes that can both be trained and inferred efficiently. Without the proper arrangement, a biological neural network or a computer circuit is much less intelligent.

Finally in the future we could imagine intelligent mechanisms based on quantum mechanics for example. In this case, it would probably be vastly different from nodes and edges, due to the underlying physical constraints that are different in electricity and in quantum mechanics.

tldr: yes nodes and edges seem fundamental in fast intelligence based on electricity, but other very different intelligent mechanism exist in biological organisms, and other very different intelligent mechanisms could still be invented in the future.

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