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United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

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Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#721

Post by DougBTX »

steve_gh wrote: post #587
9659 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 2000, Software QA (and almost all traditional QA activities) were changed. The focus was on process over inspection. "Design in quality, do not inspect it into the product" Suppliers (to include software) were expected to manage the quality of the product they provided; the purchaser would focus on how they managed the process, not in the compliance of every part. This had a chance until software process was to…

I recall a bug I was involved with at a telecoms equipment market in the early 2000s. The bug only showed up in our biggest base stations in high load situations. We diagnosed the bug, and there were a couple of parts to it. Sloppy software design in an optional hardware module (no state machine) was one part - and was fixed. But there was another underlying issue in the way message queues were handled. Anyhow, the f…

Another way of looking at that is that within the ability to test, the implementations were indistinguishable, so the process mandated that the older implementation must be used. I wonder if they would have explicitly specified age as a metric if this was considered when designing the process.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#722

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #706
MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, funny strawman. My reasoning is that non developers are capable of managing developers, notably people who have good management skills. Your contention is that the surgeon should be running the hospital.

Hahah, indeed. So have you seen a law department in a company headed by someone who doesn't come from law background? How about a finance department headed by some schmuck who doesn't know anything about finance?

I've seen plenty of departments managed by people who don't come from the background of the department. My current boss is extremely good and came from a different discipline.

Although I don't deny it can help to have the background, it is not necessary to be a good manager of something. Also seen plenty of good techies promoted to management and failing badly.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#723

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

mangodrunk wrote: post #709
MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, funny strawman. My reasoning is that non developers are capable of managing developers, notably people who have good management skills. Your contention is that the surgeon should be running the hospital.

I disagree with you. You are stating it, but you are not giving reasons. Managers who weren’t developers tend to not be able to manage the team. They can’t help with or understand the technical decisions made. The non-technical managers tend to be project managers just focused on dates.

We may be talking about different levels of management here. A manager should not be making technical decisions, they should have team leads and architects who do that. It's their job to manage the team, interface with the business, prioritise work and give cover to the team so they can get on with it.

I guess if you have a manager who is making technical decisions, they are really a hybrid manager/contributor role. Maybe that works better in smaller organisations.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#724

Post by pi-e-sigma »

MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #722
pi-e-sigma wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahah, indeed. So have you seen a law department in a company headed by someone who doesn't come from law background? How about a finance department headed by some schmuck who doesn't know anything about finance?

I've seen plenty of departments managed by people who don't come from the background of the department. My current boss is extremely good and came from a different discipline. Although I don't deny it can help to have the background, it is not necessary to be a good manager of something. Also seen plenty of good techies promoted to management and failing badly.

This is a lie, and you know it. Even a mere idea about lawyers being managed by a non-lawyer would be laughed at. Same with finance, nobody would be stupid enough to even try it

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#725

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #724
MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen plenty of departments managed by people who don't come from the background of the department. My current boss is extremely good and came from a different discipline. Although I don't deny it can help to have the background, it is not necessary to be a good manager of something. Also seen plenty of good techies promoted to management and failing badly.

This is a lie, and you know it. Even a mere idea about lawyers being managed by a non-lawyer would be laughed at. Same with finance, nobody would be stupid enough to even try it

It's ok to disagree, we don't have to accuse each other of mendacity.

I stand by what I said, although my experience is in the technical domain, not finance or law. Maybe those departments are different, I don't know.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#726

Post by euroderf »

caycep wrote: post #717
rob74 wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the shareholders like the management? Cutting corners to increase (short-term) profits is more popular with them than focusing on quality. And now that the company has been in the red consistently since 2019 ( https://www.statista.com/chart/20660/boeing-earnings-loss/ ), of course the answer has to be to lower costs even more wherever possible in order to return to profitability...

So should something as mission critical as an aircraft manufacturing co have some ownership/oversight that's not public shareholders? Give the NTSB a few seats on the board

NTSB?? In American style management there's no room for namby-pamby "stakeholders" on the board.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#727

Post by euroderf »

burnerthrow008 wrote: post #711
x86x87 wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me ask this: assuming they did not tighten the bolts correctly and qa didn't check it, what are the odds they keep an accurate paper trail?

Close to zero, but that doesn’t help them. If the paperwork was falsified to say that everything was tightened and verified, and Boeing stands behind that, now Boeing has to investigate and come up with a plan to prevent these bolts from “mysteriously loosening” (because everything was fine when it left the factory)… which will be an even bigger pain in the ass than just fixing the QA process.

Maybe bring in some QA professionals from... Airbus.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#728

Post by x86x87 »

burnerthrow008 wrote: post #711
x86x87 wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me ask this: assuming they did not tighten the bolts correctly and qa didn't check it, what are the odds they keep an accurate paper trail?

Close to zero, but that doesn’t help them. If the paperwork was falsified to say that everything was tightened and verified, and Boeing stands behind that, now Boeing has to investigate and come up with a plan to prevent these bolts from “mysteriously loosening” (because everything was fine when it left the factory)… which will be an even bigger pain in the ass than just fixing the QA process.

I mean, if they are not doing it in good faith no matter what happens is going to be half assed.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#729

Post by samstave »

samstave wrote: post #719
jacquesm wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd lose your money. The plug is inserted from the outside and retained with fasteners against cabin pressure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression Look at causes of explosive decompression - look at the mass increase to add windows' struct infra to weight and mass to a plane, look at explosive bolts for emergencies * Explosive decompression is the most dangerous, and can cause severe injuries or death. It is caused by a sudden and catastrophic failure of the pressure vessel, such as a window blowing out o…

Lets not forget about Wellstone ,and Poland and so many others. Would you like a Helo ride over the beautiful Amazon?

You are a MORON of Aerial-Assassination, as it isnt your thing. Hope you dont get in a small plane anytime soon - why do you think billionaires dont employ you to watch over their planes, Helios, etc...you not-minion.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#730

Post by euroderf »

plagiarist wrote: post #701
leetrout wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> had a train sitting on the tarmac for hours I took the Amtrak a couple times from DC through WVA and have had several delays trying to get from VA to KY due to priority being given to the freight trains. I remember one trip having a one or two hour delay in the middle of no where while we were side tracked. It is much, much more comfortable than a plane though.

I kinda knew I'd get called out on that, but, yeah, definitely more comfortable. You can even get up instead of, "everyone has to stay seated because any minute now we will be ready." Some trains have a food car. It's great.

> Some trains have a food car. It's great.

Also IME Amtrak's prices are surprisingly reasonable. More like a place around the corner than like an airport food court.

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