United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections • Hacker News Board

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#421

Post by free2023 » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:06 AM UTC

Why are there bolts and machine screws in use in the first place?

The seating configurations for United and Alaska, the 2 major customers for this aircraft, don't require this plug-door feature. Structurally, for these large carriers, the plug door serves only as a fuselage weakness and failure point.

Why don't they just rivet it permanently to the fuselage and make it non-functional? Per the diagrams shown, it's a complex assembly that serves no purpose at all for these carriers.

(Apparently it was used as a cargo door to furnish the interiors, which seems like a trivial use case.)

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#422

Post by dpkirchner » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:08 AM UTC

INGSOCIALITE wrote: post #381

all of this just to eliminate an emergency exit to fit 2 extra fares on each flight

And to avoid retraining 737 pilots, I guess.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#423

Post by emeril » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:08 AM UTC

t-writescode wrote: post #397

Syonyk wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's as insane as it reads. It means people were careless and sloppy during assembly. Think of it like seeing "one cockroach in your kitchen." It's not one cockroach. You just haven't opened up the rest of the walls.

When a junior software engineer drops a table in production, we don’t say the junior engineer was sloppy. We say the protections and process in place were bad. I don’t like how the sentence in this parent comment blames individuals for process problems.

well, so long as a student's name isn't "Robert'); drop table students;"...

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#424

Post by emeril » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:09 AM UTC

partiallypro wrote: post #391

ethanbond wrote: post #4

Soothing to read this while waiting to taxi aboard a different 737 model flown by United!

Luckily this seems to only effect one (newer) model of the 737, though you begin to wonder what was missed in the others.

at this point, I'd prefer to be on an older boeing than a newer one...:(

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#425

Post by rectang » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:09 AM UTC

ethbr1 wrote: post #371

nolok wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the quality of the manufacturing and QA / final inspection to have that kind of issue.

I expect even at its worst, software development could learn a lot from aircraft QA. Especially since most shops have pretty much tossed professional career QA out the window.

Is it plausible that Boeing has "learned" from software/startup/venture-capital culture with regards to tolerating higher risk to minimize costs?

I suspect it's rather a case of parallel evolution between McDonnell Douglas brass and software startup culture, since cost-cutting culture goes back many decades (remember "Chainsaw" Al Dunlap[1] ?) — but I wonder if there's a more direct influence.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_J._Dunlap

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#426

Post by 1-6 » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:09 AM UTC

Is union labor shielded from poor QC?

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#427

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:12 AM UTC

actionfromafar wrote: post #412

ShadowBanThis01 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, of course, from Boeing's aircraft-software QA... which killed hundreds of people already.

The problem was not really the software in isolation, but that pilots expected the 737 NG to behave exactly like the old version - because Boeing decided it was too expensive to retrain pilots.

The expense for retraining pilots falls on the airline.

Retraining has its own problems. No matter how well retraining is done, pilots still make mistakes from doing the right thing for the previous plane that is the wrong thing for the one they are currently flying.

Adjusting airplanes to fly the same way is a major safety advantage.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#428

Post by Groxx » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:14 AM UTC

rectang wrote: post #425

ethbr1 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect even at its worst, software development could learn a lot from aircraft QA. Especially since most shops have pretty much tossed professional career QA out the window.

Is it plausible that Boeing has "learned" from software/startup/venture-capital culture with regards to tolerating higher risk to minimize costs? I suspect it's rather a case of parallel evolution between McDonnell Douglas brass and software startup culture, since cost-cutting culture goes back many decades (remember "Chainsaw" Al Dunlap[1] ?) — but I wonder if there's a more direct influence. [1] https://en.wikipedi…

In lots of ways, the "learning" there would just be "capitalism".

It's inherently short-sighted unless forced to do otherwise by legislation. Cutting small corners pays off A LOT until the hammer falls, so there's a massive advantage to doing it / you need to do it if competition is doing it, or you eventually shut down as they take all your business.

It's inherently a race to the bottom. Sometimes that's a net gain, sometimes it isn't.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#429

Post by mynameisnoone » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:15 AM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #243

fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More rampant speculation! Some quotes from this article: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-ae... > As part of the production process, Spirit builds fuselages for 737s and sends them by train with the special door assembly “semi-rigged,” one of the people said. > “They are fitted but not completed," the person said. > At its Renton, Washington, plant, Boeing typically removes the pop-out, or no…

There’s no way that this is what happened. They’re not building IKEA furniture, everything is tightly check-listed.

You're talking out of your ass. Watch this documentary about whistleblower complaints as far back as the 737 NG line as they observed workers beating structural parts into place with hammers. Clearly, things haven't improved since then. https://youtu.be/IaWdEtANi-0

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#430

Post by local_crmdgeon » Tue, Jan 09, 2024, 1:16 AM UTC

free2023 wrote: post #421

Why are there bolts and machine screws in use in the first place? The seating configurations for United and Alaska, the 2 major customers for this aircraft, don't require this plug-door feature. Structurally, for these large carriers, the plug door serves only as a fuselage weakness and failure point. Why don't they just rivet it permanently to the fuselage and make it non-functional? Per the diagrams shown, it's a c…

Saves Boeing money by manufacturing 1 frame