Live data from Hacker News

United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

theaircurrent.com

401–410 of 773 posts

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More rampant speculation! Some quotes from this article: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-ae... > As part of the production process, Spirit builds fuselages for 737s and sends them by train with the special door assembly “semi-rigged,” one of the people said. > “They are fitted but not completed," the person said. > At its Renton, Washington, plant, Boeing typically removes the pop-out, or no…

I’m no MBA or aerospace engineer, but why sub-contract the fuselage? I get subbing engines, since engine designs can be used on/adapted to other (possibly non-Boeing) airframes, hence opening up economies of scale, etc. But the fuselage is most of the plane by mass and integral to the design of everything else. If you don’t like making fuselages, maybe you should get out of the aircraft business. Was this just a unio…

Spirit was spun out of Boeing

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how would you break up Boeing to create more competition for civil airliners exactly?

Make five of them that each have full rights to the existing company's designs and split their existing physical plant between them. Does one of the new companies have the only plant that makes a certain type of component? That's fine, customers can buy from them like they buy from the existing Boeing, but now the other sister companies have the incentive to build another plant to compete for that business, and the f…

You realize how type ratings work yeah? An airline wants to fly a common model. They wanted a 737. They would buy a worse plane for twice as much (see: 737 max) over a brand new clean sheet model that’s incompatible with their pilots.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#404
post #41

I found it interesting that Boeing did proactively tell airlines to inspect 737 MAXs for a possible loose bolt in a different part of the plane (rudder section) at least 8 days before the January 5th event. Example story: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-ur... Unfortunately, Boeing did not know they had other issues with the plug door bolts.

They are not related. Probably different types of bolts, for sure different stress types. Rudder assembly is a moving part, these false door panels are not.

> these false door panels are not.

It's not a control surface, but it is a "moving part." That's what's baffling to me, that they spent a lot of effort building this hinge and pin roller system, and designed the door to hinge open up to 15 degrees.

It makes me wonder if there's maintenance procedures that at some point would require the operation of that door to successfully complete. Otherwise, the mechanism itself seems so incredibly overwrought, with lots of additional bolts, castle nuts, retaining pins, and even sprung hinges at the bottom.

Does anyone know why this "plug-type non-plug door" is built this way?

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#405
post #371
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the quality of the manufacturing and QA / final inspection to have that kind of issue.

I expect even at its worst, software development could learn a lot from aircraft QA. Especially since most shops have pretty much tossed professional career QA out the window.

I work in the defense industry, it’s very much like the aerospace industry in that we deal with human life as a consequence of our work. We have software QA departments that operate very much like manufacturing or aerospace QA.

Software QA provides nothing of value to software development; having it as a dedicated function works against the overtly stated goals of the function and counterintuitively acts to degrade quality within software by mandating strict top down process and brittle end-to-end testing.

Although Software QA is intended to be an independent verification body that provides engineering organizations with tools and resources, in practice they function as a moral crumple zone [1] within the complex socio-technical defense industrial system, being one of the groups that the finger will be pointed to when something goes wrong and absorb shock to the business in the event of a failure. As a result they have a strong incentive to highly systematize their work with specific process steps, to shield them from liability, which can be applied generically to all projects.

Good software teams build quality into projects by introducing continuous integration, unit testing, creating feedback, and tightening these feedback loops. This acts to find problems quickly and resolve them quickly. Software QAs need for high level, top down, generic systemization requires them to work against these principles in practice. Bespoke project specific checks, such as unit testing, is not viewed as contributing to the final product and is discouraged by leadership who see it as waste.

To give an example of how these dynamics destroy quality in software. I once found a bug in software on a piece of test equipment where a logarithmic search function was not operating on a strictly sorted list. When I pointed this out to my leadership I was told that if we changed any part of code, it would require a new FQT, which would be too expensive to conduct and was not in the budget. Although the bug would have been trivial to solve, and was clearly wrong and would not provide any benefits by remaining in the test equipment software, the process required for changes prevented solving the issue.

[1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2757236

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#406
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect even at its worst, software development could learn a lot from aircraft QA. Especially since most shops have pretty much tossed professional career QA out the window.

QA was literally invented for the airline industry. Software QA when actually practiced is more advanced now than airline QA.

> Software QA when actually practiced is more advanced now than airline QA.

...eh, I think "when actually practiced" is doing a lot of carrying there.

What do you mean by "actually practiced".

Outside of the aerospace and healthcare industries, I'm not sure there are many software shops that are doing QA to a level I would like to trust anyone's life with.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#407
post #373

for the history on Boeing's rot and the issues with this plane, this book is great: Flying Blind: The 737 MAX Tragedy and the Fall of Boeing

Link?

Also, the rot didn't start with the 737 MAX. The 737 NG has critical problems that went unaddressed that has contributed to multiple fatalities and equipment damage. Here's a documentary about it:

People & Power - On a wing and a prayer (2010) Al Jazeera

https://youtu.be/IaWdEtANi-0

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/people-power/2010/12/15/on...

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#408
post #307

Bolts and machine screws are very interesting. One mistake I, an amateur bike mechanic, made for years was not greasing bolts properly before assembly. It sounds counterintuitive but without grease a bolt (or machine screw) will bind early with a high torque well before it is correctly tensioned lengthways. The torque is just a proxy for the tension and it is this tension which is needed to fasten your components tog…

Only grease fasteners if specified by the manufacturer, otherwise you're going to apply much higher than specified tension at the same torque value.

I need manufacturers to give "frame spent 3 decades in the salt belt, questionable metal compatibility and won't be taken apart until it breaks again" torque specs.

It's like they think I'm going to take this thing apart and put it back together every year.

j/k, finding torque specs for a decades old steel bike is a lost cause

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#409
post #178
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's as insane as it reads. It means people were careless and sloppy during assembly. Think of it like seeing "one cockroach in your kitchen." It's not one cockroach. You just haven't opened up the rest of the walls.

In software this is a reboot or an apology to a client. In aerospace this is dead people.

Server leaking sensitive personal info due to bug can easily lead to doxxing, which can be amplified to swatting, which can kill.

Hospital system failing to parse patient's allergies can kill.

MCAS

Therac-25

That said, the stuffs I normally work in (or rather what I allow myself to work in) fall in to the reboot and apologize category.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not related. Probably different types of bolts, for sure different stress types. Rudder assembly is a moving part, these false door panels are not.

> these false door panels are not. It's not a control surface, but it is a "moving part." That's what's baffling to me, that they spent a lot of effort building this hinge and pin roller system, and designed the door to hinge open up to 15 degrees. It makes me wonder if there's maintenance procedures that at some point would require the operation of that door to successfully complete. Otherwise, the mechanism itself…

my guess is: to replace gaskets/seals
Post reply on HN