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United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

theaircurrent.com

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Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#341
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the concern is more the attitude that allowed this to happen, despite all the issues Boeing has had.

Yes, this seems like a top to bottom culture rot problem at Boeing sacrificing quality control in exchange for reduced costs. A few years ago, I had read that certain airlines demanded planes manufacturered in Washington rather than South Carolina, and I wonder if that information actually ends up being a useful signal for better quality planes. https://www.postandcourier.com/business/airline-surveys-poin... https://…

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Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon Musk doesn't have a spare hundred billion. Apple is one of the only entities that does, but it's not really their kind of market. Institutional customers that are going to expect gradual iteration and thorough specifications that allow independent third party repairs etc. That's more like Microsoft's kind of market, but uh... don't give them any ideas.

I can't even fathom what it would cost to ride an Apple airplane, coach.

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Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#343

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maLBGFYl9_o is a good video explaining how the bolts/doors etc are supposed to go together.

Very interesting video that shows a clear picture of how the plug is held in place. Some interesting spots in the video, 8:44 shows how the upper two locking bolts lock the roller pins into the upper door tracks, and 10:00 show the lower two locking bolts onto the sliding hinge posts. 13:10 shows how the door blew cleanly off, with very little damage to the roller pins and lower hinge posts. Some comments say the same plug have been used on the 737-900 which didn't have this issue.

My armchair speculative guess: there are only 4 bolts effectively holding the door onto the roller pins and lower hinges. Somehow I don't think it's a simple case of someone forgetting to tighten the bolts; since they're using castle nuts, forgetting to torque them down would leave behind extra cotter pins. Those bolts look positively tiny, probably no more than M12 diameter, and are subject to intense shearing forces. In the case of the upper roller pin with locking bolt, they are effectively two cylinders perpendicular and on top of each other, which causes extreme compressive forces to be concentrated on one tiny spot on the bolt. My guess is they cheaped out and switched to an inappropriate/softer bolt, which sheared and/or corroded. If one shears, the load quickly spreads to the remaining 3 bolts which all also shear off. This theory would still jive with OPs article about UA; "loose bolts" may not necessarily mean "untightened nuts and bad QA", but rather, signs that the locking bolts are all beginning to bend or shear.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this seems like a top to bottom culture rot problem at Boeing sacrificing quality control in exchange for reduced costs. A few years ago, I had read that certain airlines demanded planes manufacturered in Washington rather than South Carolina, and I wonder if that information actually ends up being a useful signal for better quality planes. https://www.postandcourier.com/business/airline-surveys-poin... https://…

I think the Max 9 are made in WA though, so it would be a much wider scale cultural problem than just SC's non-union vs. WA union factories.

That’s unfortunate, seems like there are no Boeing planes left with the level of credibility they had before.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#345
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably one of those guys that says "click!" whenever they tighten a bolt.

The vast majority of fasteners on your car do not depend on being torqued precisely. Basically anywhere you need to worry about clearance (e.g. bearings). If it's a matter of ensuring nothing comes loose you'll have things like threadlocker or a cotter (split) pin.

Exactly this, old school mechanics work by feel and only need a torque wrench for things like head studs

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#346

Such a crappy aircraft - can we just get rid of these already?

>Such a crappy aircraft - can we just get rid of these already? It was a beautiful aircraft, destroyed by years of management comittees. Boeing needs to be broken up and reorganized, full stop. Congress has to act. It is simply too important and vital of a company to US strategic interests to be left in this state.

> Boeing needs to be broken up and reorganized, full stop. Congress has to act. It is simply too important and vital of a company to US strategic interests to be left in this state.

The MD merger that led to the shift of Boeing management culture was due to the government intervening and forcing a marriage between the two companies because MD was too important for vital defense interests.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it means the torque specs were a little too low, or too high and stripped, or the bolt threading was defective/spec’d wrong. Or bad metallurgy. Or the spec didn’t specify which order to tighten the bolts, so which direction you go causes different outcomes. Lots of stuff is assembled consistently and carefully “wrong”, but as specified.

Some part of the process -- anywhere from specs to assembly-- had some cost cutting that led to the outcome. The root cause of this problem is something financially motivated.

You don't know that.

Cost cutting could have been a factor. Or the root cause might have been something entirely different.

It's quite possible to choose to spend more money on a process or method you believe is higher quality, but still discover it has some specific problem that the previous cheaper version didn't.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#348
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC every bolt's torque value needs to be logged any time it's (re)fastened. At least that's true for aircraft engine maintenance, not sure if it applies to the assembly process of the airframe, I'd sure hope so!

Man, if that's not automated how do they keep the numbers from being fudged? That's a lot of bolts, isn't it?

They should put the bolt torque values on the blockchain. That'll fix it.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#349
post #246

Check out this video showing how the plug is supposed to be installed: https://youtu.be/maLBGFYl9_o?t=540 Some of the bolts that would be loosened when the plug is opened during maintenance have a pin to prevent them from turning. That pin is present in this photo: https://x.com/byerussell/status/1744460136855294106?s=46&t=s... However, the same photo shows other critical bolts that hold the whole hinge on the door a…

"Loose bolts" is not a ton of detail. It could have nothing to do with any of the bolts discussed in that video. I'm having a hard time imagining how this failure could occur from just those bolts "needing tightening". They are lock bolts with pins and appear to take shear forces and provide no clamping functionality. Even if the bolts were "loose", or not torqued to spec, how would they come all the way undone? Then…

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Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#350
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The safety wire comes in to prevent a loose bolt from gently unscrewing itself further and completely disassembling itself (which can happen with vibration). You're much better off with a loose bolt, than a missing one. It'll hopefully make itself known somehow (maybe even just visual inspection) while still remaining somewhat attached, which is better than nothing.

Thanks for the explanation. Does that mean a correctly wired bold should have wires loose enough to allow a loose bolt to give itself away — either through rattling or becoming visibly undone? When I searched for images of wired bolts just now I saw many examples where the wire is done up quite tightly, which doesn’t seem right.

I don’t know what Boeing do, but you typically see torque markings on many of these bolts on small planes (and cars, roller coasters, other things).

If the painted seal is broken or misaligned, you know the nut has moved.

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