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Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#21

Post by troupe »

huytersd wrote: post #10
LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

The longer you live, the less adaptable your species is. The more generations you can have in a shorter amount of time, the faster you can have beneficial mutations that help your species survive changing conditions.

I'm not seeing how longevity slows the number of generations you can have per unit of time. That seems like it would be determined by how quickly a species reproduces after being born...not how long they live.

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#22

Post by JumpCrisscross »

huytersd wrote: post #10
LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

The longer you live, the less adaptable your species is. The more generations you can have in a shorter amount of time, the faster you can have beneficial mutations that help your species survive changing conditions.

> longer you live, the less adaptable your species is

I live near Yellowstone. There are seasonal hunting grounds the bison, which live a decade or two, won’t cross into. The wolves, meanwhile, don’t live long enough for the lesson to stick. So they continuously cross and get shot.

Humans erected an invisible barrier. The bison adapted where the wolves, arguably the more intelligent creature, did not, in part due to the latter’s short lifespan.

The best of both worlds would be a long-lived polygamous creature that’s constantly reproducing. Ecology, however, proscribes limits on that approach.

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#23

Post by troupe »

LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

> Cheating maximizes the benefit to that individual. But possibly damages the collective.

It would seem like a species that has a language would greatly benefit from having individuals with more years of experience on how to handle infrequent events like droughts, floods, abnormal animal migrations, etc.

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#24

Post by hot_gril »

LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

I'm guessing it's simpler than that. It's hard to keep the seed and mechanisms for reproduction healthy forever. Even if there's no harm to the group, anti-aging might have a cost that reduces the individual's ability to reproduce at an earlier age, or at least it doesn't help.

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#25

Post by fnordpiglet »

redcobra762 wrote: post #19
fnord77 wrote: post #2

in worms

which have cells like humans

All living things have at least one cell, but they do not all operate in the same way. There’s possibility that worm cells and human cells behave similarly in this, but it’s also fully possible they behave in very dissimilar ways.

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#26

Post by Shorel »

LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

I have believed that to be the case for a while. It's perfectly logical, from a species point of view.

I also think that we are hardwired not to be able to believe our own lies, because of this. There is (99.9% of the time) a tell, for humans. For someone to effectively lie to us, we need to want to believe the lie, otherwise it fails.

The TV show "Lie to me" is therefore a fascinating exploration (a bit exaggerated in its effectiveness) of how to detect and point out such tells.

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#27

Post by hughesjj »

LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

Veratasium just made an approachable video on this subject recently, I definitely recommend. It rebukes the whole 'oh no I just heard what a Nash equilibrium is and now I'm worried cooperation is impossible long term' fears some people interpret his thought experiment (prisoners dillema) to have. Tldr it's rare that you can't coordinate, communicate, or have exactly one trial.

https://youtu.be/mScpHTIi-kM?si=v8FvrfMCHioLJET5

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#28

Post by hot_gril »

hughesjj wrote: post #27
LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

Veratasium just made an approachable video on this subject recently, I definitely recommend. It rebukes the whole 'oh no I just heard what a Nash equilibrium is and now I'm worried cooperation is impossible long term' fears some people interpret his thought experiment (prisoners dillema) to have. Tldr it's rare that you can't coordinate, communicate, or have exactly one trial. https://youtu.be/mScpHTIi-kM?si=v8FvrfMC…

Is the longer tl;dr that with multiple trials and possible miscommunication, the winning individual strategy is tit-for-tat, and the winning group strat is some softer tit-for-tat with one forgivable betrayal?

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#29

Post by alexschnapp »

LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

There is no more evolutionary pressure on lifespan after you have children since you have successfully passed on the ‘aging’ gene. We used to live much shorter lives, being able to die of old age was rare, therefore, no selection. If we start to have children at 90 years old we may be able to double our lifespans (while the ones that are unable to reproduce earlier will not pass on that inability).

There is no cheating, since we could not modify our genomes and give ourselves superpowers. We cannot live forever because there was no need. We won’t die before we can successfully reproduce.

Re: Cells across the body talk to each other about aging

#30

Post by pmontra »

troupe wrote: post #23
LASR wrote: post #3

You know, I've recently wondered quite a bit about aging and how any of it makes sense. What has perplexed me is the notion of honest signals[1] in a world governed by natural selection and the survival of the fittest. Why wouldn't cheating exclusively emerge as the only strategy? Why wouldn't a species evolve a mechanism to survive longer and longer till it completely dominates? Then it dawned on me that the surviva…

> Cheating maximizes the benefit to that individual. But possibly damages the collective. It would seem like a species that has a language would greatly benefit from having individuals with more years of experience on how to handle infrequent events like droughts, floods, abnormal animal migrations, etc.

Yes, but only as long as they can still communicate and as long as there are no younger experts with comparable experience, if not more up to date, and better motor and communication skills. That puts some limit to useful age.
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