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United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

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Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#171

Post by tavavex »

consumer451 wrote: post #97
pc86 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh nice this is the first time I've seen the AI equivalent of "Bitcoin fixes this" in the wild.

This is hilarious, but I think we might be being a bit unfair. Why couldn't you use something a camera on eyeglasses while doing the work correctly to fine tune a multimodal model, and then infer to a user wearing the same glasses? Audio reply saying "nope, try again." You would need multiple frames per second, so not today, but not that far into the future, right? edit: Zero-shot, I just took photos of me "fixing th…

The reason why it's bad is that this is an overcomplicated process that introduces potentially unreliable bells and whistles for little upside. At the end of the day, there aren't fundamental issues with a trained employee following a checklist. Machine learning is extremely powerful but tons of issues can be solved in a straightforward algorithmic fashion, so we should really be using it where it could make a big difference.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#172

Post by plagiarist »

intunderflow wrote: post #6

At what point do consumers en-masse refuse to fly on these aircraft, if ever? When there's a few more fatal crashes?

The typical person does not have the information about these failures, won't prioritize better odds of survival over short-term savings, and do not have enough money to choose alternatives anyway.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#173

Post by hef19898 »

dan_quixote wrote: post #150
Night_Thastus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those claims that it was maintenance is a bit bizarre considering these were brand new craft, and that panel isn't exactly a wear item. (ofc, some wear with each pressurization cycle, but I digress) It'd be different if it was an engine issue on a 20+ year old plane. But still, this isn't anything like the prior MAX issue - and frankly could have just as easily happened to any manufacturer like Airbus. I don't think…

One major difference I recall back when working in the industry is that Airbus didn't rely on contract manufacturing like Boeing adopted after the McDonnell Douglas merger. Spirit was just Boeing Wichita until they divested the operation only to immediately contract work with the new owner at a discount.

The Boeing MDD merger was before my time. Airbus sure does rely on contract manufacture for everything from wings over fuselage sections to doors so. Often using the same suppliers Boeing does, the market for these tier 1 manufacturing suppliers is small.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#174

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #145

Check out this video showing how the plug is supposed to be installed: https://youtu.be/maLBGFYl9_o?t=540 Some of the bolts that would be loosened when the plug is opened during maintenance have a pin to prevent them from turning. That pin is present in this photo: https://x.com/byerussell/status/1744460136855294106?s=46&t=s... However, the same photo shows other critical bolts that hold the whole hinge on the door a…

More rampant speculation!

Some quotes from this article: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-ae...

> As part of the production process, Spirit builds fuselages for 737s and sends them by train with the special door assembly “semi-rigged,” one of the people said.

> “They are fitted but not completed," the person said.

> At its Renton, Washington, plant, Boeing typically removes the pop-out, or non-functioning, door and uses the gap to load interiors. Then, the part is put back and the installation in completed. Finally, the hull is pressurized to 150% to make sure everything is working correctly, the person said.

I can imagine a diffusion of responsibility as to whose job it is supposed to be to tighten those hinge bolts. Spirit is installing the plug in a “semi-rigged” state. Boeing is removing the plug to load the interior, then reinstalling it. I’d hazard a guess that Boeing is not removing the hinges, because the plug can be removed without doing so. What if, when reinstalling the plug, Boeing workers just redo the stuff they removed? They tighten the vertical movement arrestor bolt, put the pin through it, and believe they have done their job? If they never messed with those other hinge bolts, they don’t bother tightening them?

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#175

Post by Max-q »

leetrout wrote: post #85
thinkingtoilet wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People at large simply cannot be bothered to care about anything People care deeply about a lot of things, just not this. And why should they? When you have every business decision made either by private equity or public companies with a focus only on the next 90 days it turns out everything goes to shit. Wages are stagnant. Wealth inequality is massive. Our society is sick. Issues like this will only increase. Our…

Random aside: I looked up an Acela ticket this morning. $1000 for a first class ticket from DC to BOS. 6.5 hours. Same flight first class with Delta this week is $850. Also 6 hours with layover. Blows my mind first class rail travel is as much as first class air travel.

What is the reason behind this thought? I know that most people think like this. Train should be cheaper than air.

I guess it has to do with planes replacing plane, hence plane must be better, hence more expensive.

But the reality is that the plane won because of two things: speed and cost. Air is free. Miles of miles of railroad is very expensive to build and maintain.

Trains are a bit cheaper than planes. But they travel slowly. So cost per mile per passenger is lower for a plane.

Even when subsidized, the cost of rail travel is often more expensive per mile than air travel.

So when Europe and Asia now are building a lot of high speed rail, it's not to make it cheaper, but to lower carbon footprint and to make a more pleasant experience.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#176

Post by 0xffff2 »

CaptainMarvel wrote: post #116
leetrout wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Random aside: I looked up an Acela ticket this morning. $1000 for a first class ticket from DC to BOS. 6.5 hours. Same flight first class with Delta this week is $850. Also 6 hours with layover. Blows my mind first class rail travel is as much as first class air travel.

Do you mean that the train is _as cheap_ as taking a plane? In my experience, in the UK, taking a train is more expensive than taking a flight (or driving, for that matter).

Not OP, but as a simple physics exercise, the fact that it's cheaper to put a metal tube flying in the air instead of hurling it down a pair of low-friction steel rails firmly attached to the ground to get from the same point A to the same point B is mind-boggling. It becomes even more so when you consider that I was easily able to find a ~$500 first class flight for the same route that is non-stop for just 1.5 hours of flight time, so flying is going to be a much shorter door to door time for half the price and probably a better experience to boot.

I haven't ridden Amtrak in a long time, but I would be absolutely shocked if the first class experience on the Acella is as nice, much less worth a premium compared to flying. Regardless, there's pretty much nothing they could offer to make it worth the price premium.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#177

Post by kube-system »

queuebert wrote: post #58

I've seen on Toyotas and also at Universal Studios bolts on rides are marked with paint presumably to indicate that the nut hasn't backed out. Are airliners marked in this way? Is checking the bolts simply a visual inspection, or do the inspectors need to get out a torque wrench?

Even better, safety critical bolts on these doors are (supposed to be, at least) pinned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maLBGFYl9_o&t=523s

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#178

Post by baz00 »

Syonyk wrote: post #20
napoleoncomplex wrote: post #7

On at least 5 airplanes? Of one airline? Are loose bolts a minor issue, or is it as insane as it reads?

No, it's as insane as it reads. It means people were careless and sloppy during assembly. Think of it like seeing "one cockroach in your kitchen." It's not one cockroach. You just haven't opened up the rest of the walls.

In software this is a reboot or an apology to a client.

In aerospace this is dead people.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#179

Post by Someone »

adrian_b wrote: post #50

There were only 2 possible causes of the incident, either the bolts had been replaced with bolts made from an inappropriate material, so they broke, or the bolts had not been assembled correctly, and they became loose. It appears that the latter is what happened. Perhaps those who did the assembly of the doors at Boeing did not use the right kind of washers that are needed to prevent the unscrewing of the bolts, or t…

> There were only 2 possible causes of the incident, either the bolts had been replaced with bolts made from an inappropriate material, so they broke, or the bolts had not been assembled correctly, and they became loose.

Or the ‘correct’ assembly instructions weren’t actually correct, or the design isn’t good enough (e.g. it uses too few bolts, or didn’t check the strength of the bolts when they get cold), or the bolts were of the correct material, but designed too thin, etc.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#180

Post by phkahler »

queuebert wrote: post #58

I've seen on Toyotas and also at Universal Studios bolts on rides are marked with paint presumably to indicate that the nut hasn't backed out. Are airliners marked in this way? Is checking the bolts simply a visual inspection, or do the inspectors need to get out a torque wrench?

Even on light aircraft some bolts will have a safety wire through the head to prevent it from turning. You might even see these on bolts holding the propeller on.
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