Doesn’t this call into question the manufacturing of ALL 737 MAX’s including the 7 and 8 since they must use the same manufacturing process?
United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
101–110 of 773 posts
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
My beef is that torque specs are for factory assembly. If you’re using new parts, sure, but once they’re old/re-used parts with some corrosion due to dissimilar metals, age or salt belt, you’re flying blind and probably undertorquing if going by the book. Given the amount of (soft) aluminum on aircraft, (737 is 80% aluminum), it would be insane to not precisely consider torque. Steel on steel is more forgiving.
Why would the softness matter for torque, if there has been some shift or compression since original install the torque should still ensure the correct pressure between the fitting, no?
A major concern is presumably over-torquing a screw and causing partial failure of threads in the material. This could be subtle and difficult to detect, but present as a problem over time.
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#103It seems there's a sense of malaise falling over everything and everyone in the USA. People at large simply cannot be bothered to care about anything, including torque specs for freakin' AIRLINERS
You're catastrophizing a bit. This isn't an America problem it's a Boeing problem. American air travel is safer than it's ever been. Going years without a single fatality is now the norm, not an exception. The airlines are well run and do care deeply about safety. The regulators aren't perfect but generally do a good job. The NTSB is world-class. Boeing will continue to lose marketshare to Airbus and feel some pain w…
Working conditions in the USA have come to a point where many don't care because the company doesn't care about them. People are fired at will after working for 20+ years with zero shits given. There is zero loyalty and in return workers just don't care either.
There are only so many checks and balances you can build in until this situation will catch up with you.
Doesn't amazon have such a huge turn over that they are running out of possible candidate to replace those workers?
Being pushed to deliver more and more packages in shorter time or inspect train cars in less time then required why would one care if a packages gets tossed or a rail car is not properly inspected?
In most jobs the only consequence is to be fired which is already possible for no reason what so ever in many states.
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#104At what point do consumers en-masse refuse to fly on these aircraft, if ever? When there's a few more fatal crashes?
I think it would require a fatal air crash of an American flight with a major celebrity on board.
. . . and the US airline industry has still not had a fatal crash in just under 25 years.
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#105There were only 2 possible causes of the incident, either the bolts had been replaced with bolts made from an inappropriate material, so they broke, or the bolts had not been assembled correctly, and they became loose. It appears that the latter is what happened. Perhaps those who did the assembly of the doors at Boeing did not use the right kind of washers that are needed to prevent the unscrewing of the bolts, or t…
You are assuming this is problem in the assembly and not in the design?
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know of a pretty famous car tuner in the US (I won't get too specific for various reasons) and despite most people in my community going to him for service over the years, multiple people have come out and proved he rarely if ever torques anything to spec. For the longest time he even allowed customers to watch in the shop space as he worked on their cars and he'd hand-torque many things that the car manual was ver…
Probably one of those guys that says "click!" whenever they tighten a bolt.
The vast majority of fasteners on your car do not depend on being torqued precisely. Basically anywhere you need to worry about clearance (e.g. bearings). If it's a matter of ensuring nothing comes loose you'll have things like threadlocker or a cotter (split) pin.
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know of a pretty famous car tuner in the US (I won't get too specific for various reasons) and despite most people in my community going to him for service over the years, multiple people have come out and proved he rarely if ever torques anything to spec. For the longest time he even allowed customers to watch in the shop space as he worked on their cars and he'd hand-torque many things that the car manual was ver…
My beef is that torque specs are for factory assembly. If you’re using new parts, sure, but once they’re old/re-used parts with some corrosion due to dissimilar metals, age or salt belt, you’re flying blind and probably undertorquing if going by the book. Given the amount of (soft) aluminum on aircraft, (737 is 80% aluminum), it would be insane to not precisely consider torque. Steel on steel is more forgiving.
> If you’re using new parts, sure, but once they’re old/re-used parts
Most service manuals require new bolts, fasteners and washers for torque-critical parts.
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#108It seems there's a sense of malaise falling over everything and everyone in the USA. People at large simply cannot be bothered to care about anything, including torque specs for freakin' AIRLINERS
I commented on another thread[1] but I feel like it would apply here:
> My theory is that this is not limited to Boeing or even aircraft design, it's a much deeper and systemic problem affecting all kinds of fields. We've had a lot of industrial accidents lately.
> When aircraft manufacturing was an emerging industry there were tons of undocumented safety margins and "slack" in the design and production pipeline. Over time, the beancounters start optimizing stuff, so these undocumented safety margins are eroded in the name of efficiency/profit (and sometimes even documented safety margins too).
> Furthermore, workers back in the day had a much better life when it comes to purchasing power (especially when it comes to property), and so could actually "give more fucks" about the job than they do now which is a compounding factor. You used to get a lot of implicit quality assurance back then which you don't get now.
> We've now reached a stage where these undocumented safety margins have been eroded enough that it actually starts to cause issues, and the safeguards that are supposed to catch them aren't good enough, either due to 1) they've never been good enough but just weren't really needed before or 2) they too have been eroded in the same way for the same reason.
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#109At what point do consumers en-masse refuse to fly on these aircraft, if ever? When there's a few more fatal crashes?
I'd be willing to pay a premium not to fly on such an aircraft but not too big, as even though they aren't quite as safe as they should be, my impression is that the risk is still fairly low. Something on the order of 5%
Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections
#110Industrial sabotage? Grievance sabotage? Quality control?
Hopefully they can track down the cause.