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United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

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Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#61

At what point do consumers en-masse refuse to fly on these aircraft, if ever? When there's a few more fatal crashes?

Maybe when airlines start advertising that they don’t use the new 737s. The more likely scenario is that the Chinese or Europeans will ground the new 737s until some very expensive fix is put into place and not accept any workarounds. That would probably make a difference. FYI: https://qz.com/1569865/china-grounds-737-max-8-after-ethiopi...

from a cursory check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_... there are not that many 737 MAX in Europe:

* Ryanair (124 planes out of 575)

* TUI (40 planes out of 134)

* Turkish (25 planes out of 400)

* Norwegian (18 planes out of 81)

* Icelandair (3 planes out of 47)

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#62
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of a pretty famous car tuner in the US (I won't get too specific for various reasons) and despite most people in my community going to him for service over the years, multiple people have come out and proved he rarely if ever torques anything to spec. For the longest time he even allowed customers to watch in the shop space as he worked on their cars and he'd hand-torque many things that the car manual was ver…

Probably one of those guys that says "click!" whenever they tighten a bolt.

How many times are the torque specs available to me when working on my car? I have no idea what random bolts are supposed to be so they get the good n tight click.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#64
post #40
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's as insane as it reads. It means people were careless and sloppy during assembly. Think of it like seeing "one cockroach in your kitchen." It's not one cockroach. You just haven't opened up the rest of the walls.

> It means people were careless and sloppy during assembly. Maybe. Could also be incorrect torque specs, bad parts, unexpected vibration in that area, etc. Edit: Yes, none of these are good either. Just saying there are many possibilities.

Those don’t sound very reassuring either. What’s to say that this is the only bolt with incorrect torque spec, or if this part is bad why not others, and if bad parts are not being caught during quality control then what other parts will be next to fail prematurely? And if there are unexpected vibrations in that area, why wasn’t it discovered during test flights? What other vibration issues would they not have accounted for if they weren’t capable of detecting this one?

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#65
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately consumers don't have much choice, the airline can change which type operates a flight at any time. However longer term if Boeing's reputation keeps getting worse that can motivate buying decisions by the airlines. That change will be a very slow one, because fleet changes cost a lot of money in training crews, changing maintenance etc. For example KLM is changing their short-haul fleet from the 737 NG t…

True, but some airlines probably don't have any in their fleet. If worried consumers find out they could opt to not fly on those airlines.

spirit doesn't have any of these in their fleet, but it's not the most comfortable flight

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#66

It seems there's a sense of malaise falling over everything and everyone in the USA. People at large simply cannot be bothered to care about anything, including torque specs for freakin' AIRLINERS

> People at large simply cannot be bothered to care about anything, including torque specs for freakin' AIRLINERS

It may have not been operator error with the torque wrench. Maybe the torque wrench itself was miscalibrated. Maybe the bolt had a flaw in the metal. It seems too early to make conclusions.

An example of flawed bolts on aircraft in an excerpt from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136970210...:

A bolt from an aircraft flap control unit fractured in the threaded region of the shank near the shoulder with the head upon installation after a major service. A metallurgical investigation was carried out to identify the cause of failure. The bolt was manufactured from cadmium-plated, high-strength steel. Material checks carried out on the bolt showed that it conformed to the required specification and was found to have an approximate ultimate tensile strength of 1380 MPa.

The fracture surface of the failed bolt was examined using SEM to identify the mode of fracture and determine if pre-existing defects were present that could account for the unexpected failure. The fracture surface exhibited two distinct modes of failure. [...]

The embrittlement in this case was attributed to the cadmium plating, which is applied to the bolts to provide corrosion protection to the steel. Hydrogen is evolved during the plating process, which becomes absorbed by the steel. The cadmium plating acts as a barrier to hydrogen diffusion at ambient temperature so that the hydrogen becomes ‘trapped’ in the steel. In high strength steels (>1100 MPa) this leads to embrittlement. To overcome this problem, high strength steel fasteners, which have been cadmium-plated, are baked at 175–205°C for 24 hours to allow hydrogen to diffuse through the cadmium. In this case, failure of the bolts was caused by insufficient baking after plating, which gave rise to hydrogen embrittlement.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#67

Could AI help firms like Boeing perform more robust and automated safety checks? I'm curious about how much an issue like this can be chalked up to human error vs. poor, semi-automated QA.

Neural networks for quality assessment aren't necessarily unheard of. I'm not sure how they'd be using them in this case, though?

Maybe something like a camera monitoring that they are using the correct tool at various parts of assembly? But I'm not sure how feasible this would be at airplane levels of volume.

I bet it'll be common in car assembly at some point, though.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#68

It seems there's a sense of malaise falling over everything and everyone in the USA. People at large simply cannot be bothered to care about anything, including torque specs for freakin' AIRLINERS

I know of a pretty famous car tuner in the US (I won't get too specific for various reasons) and despite most people in my community going to him for service over the years, multiple people have come out and proved he rarely if ever torques anything to spec. For the longest time he even allowed customers to watch in the shop space as he worked on their cars and he'd hand-torque many things that the car manual was ver…

German torque specs: "gutentight!"

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#69

It seems there's a sense of malaise falling over everything and everyone in the USA. People at large simply cannot be bothered to care about anything, including torque specs for freakin' AIRLINERS

>People at large simply cannot be bothered to care about anything

People care deeply about a lot of things, just not this. And why should they? When you have every business decision made either by private equity or public companies with a focus only on the next 90 days it turns out everything goes to shit. Wages are stagnant. Wealth inequality is massive. Our society is sick. Issues like this will only increase. Our rail ecosystem is experiencing the same issues for the same reason.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#70
post #20

On at least 5 airplanes? Of one airline? Are loose bolts a minor issue, or is it as insane as it reads?

No, it's as insane as it reads. It means people were careless and sloppy during assembly. Think of it like seeing "one cockroach in your kitchen." It's not one cockroach. You just haven't opened up the rest of the walls.

What's crazy to me is that these things do not roll of the factory line in large numbers. If it was a car plant or some other line where large numbers come off per shift, you could find that possibly one operator for one shift set their torque wrench to the wrong setting causing the finished items for that shift to be suspect. But seeing as not one plane rolls of the floor per shift, this is much more systemic like possibly the documentation was wrong or similar where it is persistently done incorrectly. Or maybe just the one plane for that one day that the worker incorrectly set their torque wrench that day.
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