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IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

nytimes.com

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Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#321

Post by TheCoelacanth »

moduspol wrote: post #216
mixdup wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>that all inefficiency is caused by governments Forget about the evidence of other countries (which is completely valid), I just hate the argument that government inherently because it's government is inefficient and will never be effective In the US half the people in charge of the government hate it and want it to fail. Of course it's going to be bloated, inefficient, and costly. It's being sabotaged from the top.…

And that's why our west coast cities, which are not run by the half that hates government, are shining beacons of just how effective and successful governments can be.

All cities worth mentioning are run by the half that doesn't hate government.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#322

Post by angra_mainyu »

akira2501 wrote: post #84
ethbr1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out, the easiest way to get rid of taxes is to not pay anyone to run the tax system. Bonus: being able to claim you're being fiscally responsible. (Despite taxes being a revenue generator and salary to administer them being revenue-positive)

Turns out, that's not even what's happening. In the 1950s, the citizens paid 50% of the treasury revenues. Business paid 25% and excise taxes covered the other 25%. Today, the citizens pay 85% of the treasury revenues. Business pays 7% and excise taxes cover the other 7%. They're not trying to "get rid of taxes" they're "massively shifting the burden onto the individual." This, by the way, isn't a republican vs. demo…

I will never for the life of me understand why people insist on a progressive tax structure, not only is it unfair, but it disincentivizes seeking higher wages and incentivizes seeking tax-optimization structures.

A flat tax with a tax-free base seems like the fairest, simplest, and most effective way of implementing a tax system (Estonia has been an extremely pleasant experience so far). I am aware this is also a "progressive" tax of sorts, but a much saner one.

In fact, we all seem to agree that taxes work as a disincentive and we levy tax on the stuff we want people to do less of, but when it comes to wages and business we close our eyes and flail blindly saying "WE NEED MORE TAXES".

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#323

Post by selimthegrim »

rayiner wrote: post #320
selimthegrim wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>great schools So, letting any veteran be a high school teacher without any further qualification makes it great schools? The governor purging state universities makes it great schools?

Letting veterans teach while working on their degree , which is what that law does, is a great idea. And curating the education offered in public universities is a great idea too. Public universities must serve public purposes. CRT serves to undermine the society, not reinforce it. It’s especially important to get rid of it in a majority-minority state like Florida. CRT education is racism. It teaches minority kids a…

It wasn’t the British running east Pakistan from 1947-71. I’ve actually posted an column in Bengali from Prothom Alo here before about the pre-71 education system (which does praise its high standards and quality from the British but also says that Pakistan federal government invested a lot. And then goes on to say after the 71 war the rate of people getting first division in BA exams, went up to something above 50%, which it then compares to Bankimbabu getting a second division only and leaves you to draw your own conclusions from that)

Another important point is that in 1947 right before independence the Muslim League in Bengal (remember AIML was founded in Dhaka and sponsored by Nawab Dhaka!) was demanding parity of representation (professors, etc) in the education system with Hindus and the Hindus were refusing and telling them to set up their own educational establishments.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#324

Post by smsm42 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #297
smsm42 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need the code even - though the code, as being already paid for by the taxpayers, should be available to them anyway - the rules are public, the data should be available to the public, so you can just reimplement the rules and see if you get the same answer. They key here to make the data a) available b) portable c) every decision the system takes be documented and having the audit trail.

You do need the code because if the public system gets it right for (or is otherwise used by) 90% of the taxpayers, a private system for the remaining taxpayers would have to cover its costs with only 10% of the revenue. Releasing the code reduces their costs because they don't have to duplicate the parts the government already got right, they only have to fix what it got wrong. "The rules" in this case is the tax co…

> a private system for the remaining taxpayers would have to cover its costs with only 10% of the revenue.

Is it that hard? Americans filed about 260M returns last year. 10% of it is 26M. Let's say you get only 10% of those - since you're not the only person on the market - to pay you $100 (if you save a significant amount on taxes, paying $100 for it would make sense, won't it?) - that's $260M, or about as much as the government says their whole system, for all 100% of taxpayers, would cost. If you can do better job than the government on the efficiency (not a very high bar), and you only have to support 1/10 of the volume the government does, I think these numbers look ok for you.

> You can imagine how converting that into computer code is a non-trivial undertaking notwithstanding that it's public information.

It is. But there are multiple businesses who already have been doing it for years, so it looks like a solvable problem.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#325

Post by AnthonyMouse »

smsm42 wrote: post #324
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do need the code because if the public system gets it right for (or is otherwise used by) 90% of the taxpayers, a private system for the remaining taxpayers would have to cover its costs with only 10% of the revenue. Releasing the code reduces their costs because they don't have to duplicate the parts the government already got right, they only have to fix what it got wrong. "The rules" in this case is the tax co…

> a private system for the remaining taxpayers would have to cover its costs with only 10% of the revenue. Is it that hard? Americans filed about 260M returns last year. 10% of it is 26M. Let's say you get only 10% of those - since you're not the only person on the market - to pay you $100 (if you save a significant amount on taxes, paying $100 for it would make sense, won't it?) - that's $260M, or about as much as t…

> Let's say you get only 10% of those - since you're not the only person on the market - to pay you $100 (if you save a significant amount on taxes, paying $100 for it would make sense, won't it?) - that's $260M, or about as much as the government says their whole system, for all 100% of taxpayers, would cost.

TurboTax is ~$39. Also, the cost of developing the system doesn't depend on how many people use it, and those are only the development costs, not anything else a business has to pay, like marketing, billing or interest on capital.

Moreover, suppose a business could actually get away with charging $100 and that would be enough to cover their costs. Why would you want this as opposed to releasing the source code, which reduces their costs and allows them to get by charging $25, while driving the market price down to that level by reducing the barrier to entry?

> It is. But there are multiple businesses who already have been doing it for years, so it looks like a solvable problem.

That was when you don't have a taxpayer-subsidized competitor providing an almost-as-good service for free.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#326

Post by rayiner »

selimthegrim wrote: post #323
rayiner wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting veterans teach while working on their degree , which is what that law does, is a great idea. And curating the education offered in public universities is a great idea too. Public universities must serve public purposes. CRT serves to undermine the society, not reinforce it. It’s especially important to get rid of it in a majority-minority state like Florida. CRT education is racism. It teaches minority kids a…

It wasn’t the British running east Pakistan from 1947-71. I’ve actually posted an column in Bengali from Prothom Alo here before about the pre-71 education system (which does praise its high standards and quality from the British but also says that Pakistan federal government invested a lot. And then goes on to say after the 71 war the rate of people getting first division in BA exams, went up to something above 50%,…

I don’t know anything about the education system back then. My mom had a British tutor.

> Another important point is that in 1947 right before independence the Muslim League in Bengal (remember AIML was founded in Dhaka and sponsored by Nawab Dhaka!) was demanding parity of representation (professors, etc) in the education system with Hindus and the Hindus were refusing and telling them to set up their own educational establishments.

Is your point that CRT is a good way to turn America into a third world tribal society?

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#327

Post by selimthegrim »

rayiner wrote: post #326
selimthegrim wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn’t the British running east Pakistan from 1947-71. I’ve actually posted an column in Bengali from Prothom Alo here before about the pre-71 education system (which does praise its high standards and quality from the British but also says that Pakistan federal government invested a lot. And then goes on to say after the 71 war the rate of people getting first division in BA exams, went up to something above 50%,…

I don’t know anything about the education system back then. My mom had a British tutor. > Another important point is that in 1947 right before independence the Muslim League in Bengal (remember AIML was founded in Dhaka and sponsored by Nawab Dhaka!) was demanding parity of representation (professors, etc) in the education system with Hindus and the Hindus were refusing and telling them to set up their own educationa…

My point is that era wasn't all puppies and rainbows educationally.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#328

Post by rayiner »

selimthegrim wrote: post #327
rayiner wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know anything about the education system back then. My mom had a British tutor. > Another important point is that in 1947 right before independence the Muslim League in Bengal (remember AIML was founded in Dhaka and sponsored by Nawab Dhaka!) was demanding parity of representation (professors, etc) in the education system with Hindus and the Hindus were refusing and telling them to set up their own educationa…

My point is that era wasn't all puppies and rainbows educationally.

I understand, and it still isn’t. I’m just focusing on a narrow point: my mom perceived herself as equal because she received the same education British kids. Separate but equal doesn’t work. Kids must learn to view themselves as similarly situated, or else they will not be.

In my view, this is a big problem with the Muslim world. We have this tremendous victimhood complex. Contrast the East Asian countries, who have just sucked it up and focused on getting rich.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#329

Post by selimthegrim »

rayiner wrote: post #328
selimthegrim wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that era wasn't all puppies and rainbows educationally.

I understand, and it still isn’t. I’m just focusing on a narrow point: my mom perceived herself as equal because she received the same education British kids. Separate but equal doesn’t work. Kids must learn to view themselves as similarly situated, or else they will not be. In my view, this is a big problem with the Muslim world. We have this tremendous victimhood complex. Contrast the East Asian countries, who have…

Abdus Salam tried to get the OIC to commit to spending a certain % of GDP on education and research and they basically told him to pound sand. It didn't help when Pakistan (Zia) didn't back him for UNESCO chief.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#330

Post by smsm42 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #325
smsm42 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a private system for the remaining taxpayers would have to cover its costs with only 10% of the revenue. Is it that hard? Americans filed about 260M returns last year. 10% of it is 26M. Let's say you get only 10% of those - since you're not the only person on the market - to pay you $100 (if you save a significant amount on taxes, paying $100 for it would make sense, won't it?) - that's $260M, or about as much as t…

> Let's say you get only 10% of those - since you're not the only person on the market - to pay you $100 (if you save a significant amount on taxes, paying $100 for it would make sense, won't it?) - that's $260M, or about as much as the government says their whole system, for all 100% of taxpayers, would cost. TurboTax is ~$39. Also, the cost of developing the system doesn't depend on how many people use it, and thos…

$39 is the cheapest offer (well, beyond free ones). If you want to cover your mortgage, your charity giving, savings, maybe a little stock investments, maybe some side gigs, then you very quickly get to $100. And of course state is extra (my tax return, if I choose to file with Intuit, would be at around $120 with current prices). It's not all people, for sure, but in those 10% that need non-trivial filing, those would be much more frequent that "one salary, nothing else" fold. For the latter - the pre-baked offer would be the way.

BTW, that's the cheapest offer TurboTax now does, where you do all the work. They have full-service offerings now, there it could be 3-4x from that easily. So I don't think their business is much threatened.

> That was when you don't have a taxpayer-subsidized competitor providing an almost-as-good service for free.

They already have the platform and 99% of stuff implemented. The only thing they need to do is year-to-year updates. True, it's some work, but as I just shown, their potential market is in hundreds of millions of dollars. Every year, recurring. I think many VCs would look favorably at such potential - and here we're talking about already established companies with all sunk costs already processed and paid off, needing to spend just on maintenance and recurring updates. I don't think it's as bad as you think it is.

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