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Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

theguardian.com

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Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#81

Post by Ynottingten »

starbugs wrote: post #69
dralley wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are some studies here from Germany that suggest that heat pump systems can lead to higher total CO2 emissions than using alternative systems. Were these studies, or "studies" that were effectively marketing for Russian supplied gas, which until two years ago was a state level foreign policy goal, complete subsidies that advantaged fossil fuel heating and local politicians getting kickbacks from "interested pa…

> Were these studies, or "studies" that were effectively marketing for Russian supplied gas I guess your next comment will be that the Fraunhofer Institut has been infiltrated by Russians? https://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ibp/ibp-neu/de/dok... And here's a video with all the information on different studies, universities and companies involved. This is basically a guy helping german real estate companies to…

The first link doesn't say anything about co2 at all. It talks about some inefficiencies. This doesn't mean its a bad choice and there are not many alternatives anyway. Not everyone wants an infrared based heating system or a air basesd (which would also work with a heat pump, air to air).

The second link is an interview were there is already a counter video. Rieck does not verify all sources and interviews a broad spectrum of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZS9HzuQck8&ab_channel=Prof....

Also, just food for thought: If one unit of gas has one 1kWh energy, a heat pump can make 3-4kWh out of it (You are following right?).

And panic decisions: ITs very critical that you can consume energy and not just oil or gas because in 5-15 years, the co2 tax for gas and oil will be higher and you will still only be able to consume those.

The bad decision is to do nothing or to renew your oil/gas burner.

The good decision is heat pumps, infrared whatever you like and doesn't consume oil/gas or can be easily switched.

Btw. investing now in germany in PV and a heat pump (for owners of houses) is with a high chance the longterm cheaper solution overall.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#82

Post by Ynottingten »

starbugs wrote: post #4
robertlagrant wrote: post #2

The headline doesn't match the article: of the three people interviewed, the first loved it, but taxpayers paid for hers. The second liked it, but doesn't know if he'll ever make the money back, and the third didn't like it.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

In germany this topic was disucssed and is still discussed up and down and a TON of studies and caclulations exists.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#83

Post by Ynottingten »

charlieyu1 wrote: post #31
starbugs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (at least the headline) reads like an advertisement for heat pump systems. I doubt that anyone has calculated the total cost of owning and operating such a system. It might pay off in a super modern highly insulated home. Otherwise, good luck with these systems. The high upfront and maintenance cost and the expected lifetime of about 15 years make this look like a very questionable proposition to me.

Why is it so expensive to set up? Air conditioning seems to be everywhere in Asia and insulation is basically nonexistent

No clue. The last time i looked, the prices for a heat pump from known companies like LG or viesmann are similiar than a gas burner.

And with a heat pump you can even invest in PV and use that to be even more independent and later you can leverage an EV car either by never buying gas again or for storage.

Overall a very smart concept.

But perhaps he lives in a country were energy is very cheap, will stay cheap and is very stable?

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#84

Post by Ynottingten »

krona wrote: post #5

I thought this was a new kind of air-source heat pump without all the problems of existing ones, but no, it's just a heat pump. Inappropriate for many (possibly most) dwellings in the UK, and the government is bribing people to install them. For what it's worth, I think systems like https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb will eventually replace gas in the UK, not ASHPs. Similar technology is being trialled at some army barrac…

Purly heating by energy is the worst case scenario.

I have to believe your 'the zeb' system has to be a scam as the energy amount such a small device can store, doesn't add up at all.

If it requires a big water heating tank, than this device should be as big as a computer + a heating coil.

Whatever they do with there 'energy core' its either magic and patented or just a scam.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#85

Post by Ynottingten »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #6

Heat pumps could actually lead to a net increase in energy usage in northern areas because they can double as air conditioners for cooling in the summer. Normally homes in northern areas don't have AC and you just have to get through the relative short period when its hot enough that it would be nice to have. But with heat pumps, you just switch to AC mode. Also, those periods of hot weather are getting hotter and lo…

Thats a no brainer.

If the sun shines a lot, we will have a lot of energy we can consume through an AC.

Overall a heatpump will lead to a 2-4 times net energy reduction.

Your normal car can use 30-40% of the energy in gasoline. We could just make energy out of it, use the process energy and drive a heat pump and we will be above 1 kWh from 1 kWh of gasoline energy.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#86

Post by Ynottingten »

iamthepieman wrote: post #76

I was seriously in the market for a heat pump system for the upper floor of my home. The current oil fired furnace system works but oil is expensive and the heat from our pellet stove doesn't reach up to the second level very well. Then I started working at a co-working space that has a heat pump system and the HVAC techs are in here working on it a couple times a year as we wear parkas and hats because it's 10C in t…

So you have had the experience of one space using a heat pump but you don't have more information regarding it?

What type it was? How well insolated was the space? Did the manager keep the temperature low on purpose? What does the summer time and sweating to do with the heat pump?

Is your house insulated?

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#87

Post by robertlagrant »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #80
starbugs wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> kind of flippant accusation No. I rather meant to indicate that it might have been a good decision. There are some studies here from Germany that suggest that heat pump systems can lead to higher total CO2 emissions than using alternative systems. (I think it was compared to an infrared heating system with solar installed.) A high price of the hardware itself and the associated costs of installing and maintaining s…

This is a thing I've been wondering about for a while now. Energy and labor are the biggest factors that drive supply chain costs in just about every industry. The more you spend on something, the more energy and labor likely went into creating it. Energy production obviously emits carbon. Some methods more than others, but with how immensely complex the supply chains are for most products (a global market with mater…

> So if you're spending significantly more money overall on something in order to reduce your own carbon emissions, there's a pretty reasonable chance (barring any detailed analysis to prove otherwise) that the cascading effects of that spending are actually resulting in more carbon emissions in total than if you'd simply gone with the cheaper solution.

Or you reduce your carbon and increase costs massively, but another country doesn't, and your industry dies while theirs flourishes.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#88

Post by Valgrim »

jeffalyanak wrote: post #71

I'm a fan of heat pumps, but as a Canadian living in the UK I think the _first_ steps should be things like finding and patching up drafts, using double-glazed windows with low-e coatings, and improving insulation. Those will let you get the most out of an efficient heat pump.

Don't forget heat recovery ventilation.

The house I bought used originally a wood furnace which created a good draft of fresh air from the walls by sucking the ambient air into the chimney. Once the furnace had been replaced by an electric system (first radiator then heat pump), the air became stale in the house, causing all sorts of incomfort and humidity issues.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#89

Post by dralley »

Ynottingten wrote: post #81
starbugs wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Were these studies, or "studies" that were effectively marketing for Russian supplied gas I guess your next comment will be that the Fraunhofer Institut has been infiltrated by Russians? https://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ibp/ibp-neu/de/dok... And here's a video with all the information on different studies, universities and companies involved. This is basically a guy helping german real estate companies to…

The first link doesn't say anything about co2 at all. It talks about some inefficiencies. This doesn't mean its a bad choice and there are not many alternatives anyway. Not everyone wants an infrared based heating system or a air basesd (which would also work with a heat pump, air to air). The second link is an interview were there is already a counter video. Rieck does not verify all sources and interviews a broad s…

>Also, just food for thought: If one unit of gas has one 1kWh energy, a heat pump can make 3-4kWh out of it (You are following right?).

The decision is a little more complicated than that. If your electricity comes from natural gas, then you have to account for inefficiency in production of electricity and losses during transmission.

On the other hand, furnaces are not 100% efficient either, the cheap ones are 80% and the 95% efficient ones are more expensive, which narrows the gap.

Modern heat pumps can easily maintain a high enough COP to match or beat a furnace, and if you live in an area that needs both heat and A/C at different parts of the year, a more efficient unit benefits you year-round as opposed to spending more on a furnace. And if your electricity isn't coming from fossil fuels... then it's a moot point to begin with. You can't run a furnace on wind.

Re: Heat pump users noticing cheaper bills and warmer homes – study

#90

Post by [deleted] »

starbugs wrote: post #74
pastage wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not read German, but the literature is from 2008-2016 which does coincide with the peak of natural gas hysteria. Money might seem neutral but a big part of oil money has gone to lobbying, as was recently highlighted by Saudi oil fund leaks. With that said you need to say more, we have been using heat pumps for decades and it is a great thing. The Nordics has cheaper electricity though. My point is it all depends…

> big part of oil money has gone to lobbying That may be true (as it probably is for most big industries), but what does it have to do with what I have been saying? I have been talking about a comparison between two electric systems. The Fraunhofer paper just provides evidence that the COP of air heat pumps is much worse than advertised on average. If you are talking about the parent comment that said that they insta…

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