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The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu

131–140 of 152 posts

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't need to drill in anything. Shame and pride are intrinsic human nature.

> Shame and pride are intrinsic human nature. Why do you think this is true?

Because otherwise we wouldn't feel the need to drill it to our kids in school.

Like potty training, obviously if it wasn't for parents teaching basic human stuff our kids would just shit and piss everywhere casually.

/s

We tend to overestimate how much substance we're teaching to other humans, while what we are often doing is passing down "form". And "form" is very important because that's what our social instinct forces us to do, to create differences between us (with the right manners) and them (with the wrong manners)

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#132

In the foreword for Animal Farm (in the del Rey edition, I think), Orwell writes that he was asked by tankie friends to keep quiet about the USSR's crimes because they were the best chance for Communism. Bullshit from scientists is normal. They're just people after all. But people who join the Culture War on one side must necessarily choose Science as a side despite it being just a technique for knowledge, not a team…

> he was asked by tankie friends to keep quiet about the USSR's crimes because they were the best chance for Communism. I have a lot of empathy for the tankies of that era. It was clear that people like Stalin were truly evil, but it was also clear from centuries of evidence that capitalism was exploitative and needed upheaval. On PAPER, Communism sounds great. I do think people genuinely believed there were simply g…

The thing many people overlook is that the USSR was less interested in achieving communism than in co-opting any other attempts at achieving communism. This, in part, led to the Sino-Soviet split and the split with Yugoslavia. But even before that the USSR was literally founded on the Bolsheviks eliminating all other communist movements in its sphere of influence: starting with the actual soviets (bottom-up worker councils and worker cooperatives dissolved in favor of the central Bolshevik bureaucracy), the massacre of the anarchist movement in Ukraine under Makhno (which prior to that point had fought alongside the Bolsheviks against the White Army) and of course the betrayal of Spanish anarchists that led to the fascist dictatorship of Franco - the latter being something Orwell experienced himself and forever soured him on the USSR.

The Bolsheviks' (and their ideological offsprings' in China, Yugoslavia and the various countries whose movements they co-opted) idea of establishing communism was to do so with the iron fist of the vanguard party that would do all the work of preparing for communism until the unwashed masses of the entire world are sufficiently educated and enlightened to spontaneously erupt into global communism and the state would just voluntarily wither away after having served its function.

Anarchists argue that the fundamental mistake of this approach was to assume centralizing all the power previously held by a capitalist (or proto-capitalist/monarchist) state in a vanguard party is the antithesis of communism and creates perverse incentives for the party given all that power while also being told their function is to give up all that power eventually.

To paraphrase anarchist thinker Bakunin: if you're beaten with a stick it doesn't change anything if it is called The People's Stick, there needs to be no stick. If power corrupts (and absolute power... you know the drill) then we can't expect to pass the power previously held by those we despire to another group and expect them not to become equally despicable. Instead anarchists believe in building bottom-up power structures and abolishing hierarchical power structures.

> [in China] we see that successful communism requires

To be clear as this is a common misunderstanding: just like the USSR, China has always been careful to identify its politics as ideologically communist but not its system as communism. Communism is a class-less, state-less society so "communist state" in Leninist parlance should always be understood as aspirational rather than descriptive. China hasn't achieved communism, China wants to achieve communism, or so its vanguard party says.

Marx was fairly explicit about what communism is and neither the USSR, nor any of its ideological offspring were that. Arguably prehistoric societies existed in a form of "primitive communism" but except for anarcho-primitivists few people think abandoning all human accomplishments is necessary or helpful in achieving communism.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#133
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he was asked by tankie friends to keep quiet about the USSR's crimes because they were the best chance for Communism. I have a lot of empathy for the tankies of that era. It was clear that people like Stalin were truly evil, but it was also clear from centuries of evidence that capitalism was exploitative and needed upheaval. On PAPER, Communism sounds great. I do think people genuinely believed there were simply g…

The thing many people overlook is that the USSR was less interested in achieving communism than in co-opting any other attempts at achieving communism. This, in part, led to the Sino-Soviet split and the split with Yugoslavia. But even before that the USSR was literally founded on the Bolsheviks eliminating all other communist movements in its sphere of influence: starting with the actual soviets (bottom-up worker co…

You’re mixing Marxism and Leninism a little too freely and starting to conflate terms. The USSR and China are communist.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That applies to capitalism as well. For example, if you opt out of recognizing private property (in this case, by private property I mean things like land as opposed to personal property like someone's house or car) people with guns will come and destroy your personal property and/or throw you in jail.

In capitalist systems, you and your buddies are free to opt out and sign over all your property to a commune. What you aren't free to do is rob other people who don't consent to your commune of their stuff. Because they have the right to not join you, this is the fundamental sticking point that makes communists (literally) murderously mad.

I don't think that's quite accurate. The sticking point is whether people have the right to own or exclude others from private property (again as separate from personal property), to what degree it is legitimate for individuals to profit from private property, and whether that private property was legitimately acquired.

If individuals don't have the right to own or exclude others from private property, then other people using it isn't theft.

If the bounty that comes from natural resources on private property should benefit society as a whole (because no individual created them). Then it is unjust for their extraction to be monopolized by someone who claims to own them.

If land was unjustly acquired such as through enclosure of common land or colonialism, then it is the owners who are the thieves.

It's important to recognize that different branches of socialism are going to see the specifics of these sorts of issues differently.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have absolutely gotten legitimate phone calls from a sheriff/marshal in the stats of texas to let me know I had two warrants out for my arrest (failure to pay wrong left turn ticket, failure to show up at court for said ticket). I called him back at the published phone number for his division. He let me know he wasn't going to be bothered driving 45 minutes across the metro area to find me and arrest me, and if I j…

You get arrested for simple traffic ticket? That doesn't sound right. Usually you would just be unable to renew your car registration the following year until you pay said ticket.

An uncle who lived in the Kansas City suburbs was careless about parking and did not pay his parking tickets. Then one day he was pulled over by the police. They checked his information and took him to jail. My aunt showed up to pay his tickets, and discovered that the city did not take checks. A grocer kindly cashed a check for her.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In capitalist systems, you and your buddies are free to opt out and sign over all your property to a commune. What you aren't free to do is rob other people who don't consent to your commune of their stuff. Because they have the right to not join you, this is the fundamental sticking point that makes communists (literally) murderously mad.

I don't think that's quite accurate. The sticking point is whether people have the right to own or exclude others from private property (again as separate from personal property), to what degree it is legitimate for individuals to profit from private property, and whether that private property was legitimately acquired. If individuals don't have the right to own or exclude others from private property, then other peo…

The fact of the matter is that under capitalism, you can choose to pool your resources with other people and start your own little communist society embedded in the capitalist society. As long as all of your participants are consenting, that's allowed.

On the flipside, in a nominally communist society (or more accurately, a socialist society which is striving to achieve communism in the future, supposedly a scientifically inevitable outcome which has never panned out...), you're not allowed to create an embedded capitalist society of consenting members. People still do it of course, but it is officially forbidden and all the consenting participants are risking state violence.

The reason the commune of consenting members embedded in a capitalist society doesn't satisfy you is because you think that "real communism" can only be done if you can force unconsenting people to comply; if you are allowed to steal and murder anybody who isn't with you. But the truth is that even when people striving for communism have free reign to force compliance of the unwilling, they still inevitability fail to achieve communism. It's a utopian ideology which will never be realized, which is good only for giving the bitter and resentful a license to murder.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's quite accurate. The sticking point is whether people have the right to own or exclude others from private property (again as separate from personal property), to what degree it is legitimate for individuals to profit from private property, and whether that private property was legitimately acquired. If individuals don't have the right to own or exclude others from private property, then other peo…

The fact of the matter is that under capitalism, you can choose to pool your resources with other people and start your own little communist society embedded in the capitalist society. As long as all of your participants are consenting, that's allowed. On the flipside, in a nominally communist society (or more accurately, a socialist society which is striving to achieve communism in the future, supposedly a scientifi…

Please don't resort to personal attacks.

The issue with creating a communist society inside a capitalist society is that it is only possible for people who already have access to capital. People without access to capital do not have that option. If it is unjust to exclude others from private property or if the person who owns the private property gained in unjustly, then it is unjust if only those who own private property can opt out of capitalism.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#138
post #99

I've put myself into classical con situations out of curiosity. Even when I purposefully seek to be conned, it's embarrassing to have it happen. In my case, simple subway con artist performing the classic magic trick where you bet money to determine where the queen is under three cards. As a hobbyist magician I'm able to follow him as the subway scammer performs the drop, switching the queen for another card. I'm not…

I always thought the “trick” in three-card monte is that pickpockets are working the crowd while everyone’s attention is on the cards.

Hmm, possibly true.

But inside of a subway, there's not so much of a place to run. For either of us (scammer or victim). And being out in the public likely mitigates any violent actions as well (knives or pistols).

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#139
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing many people overlook is that the USSR was less interested in achieving communism than in co-opting any other attempts at achieving communism. This, in part, led to the Sino-Soviet split and the split with Yugoslavia. But even before that the USSR was literally founded on the Bolsheviks eliminating all other communist movements in its sphere of influence: starting with the actual soviets (bottom-up worker co…

You’re mixing Marxism and Leninism a little too freely and starting to conflate terms. The USSR and China are communist.

Neither of the two are (or were) simply "Marxist" though. The USSR under Stalin was Stalinist and otherwise Marxist-Leninist at best. China was Maoist and is now more recently Dengist. These ideologies all claim to build on Marx to various degrees (as does Vietnamese Ho Chi Minh Thought for that matter) but calling them Marxist is a stretch. I'm explicitly referring to the Bolsheviks to make a general point about vanguardism which all of these ideologies are built on.

I also explicitly said that the USSR and China are/were aspirationally communist, i.e. their stated intent was to build communism. This is why most of the Eastern Block described their various forms of authoritarianism as "actually existing socialism" or "real socialism" and dismissed anyone criticising them as "utopian", i.e. demanding the impossible. They never claimed to have succeeded at building communism - in fact they mostly argued that the only way to achieve communism would be a universal global transition and this was the motivation behind co-opting foreign communist movements and bringing them in line.

Communism as used by Marx is a class-less, state-less society. Anarchists extend this definition to the abolishment of all power hierarchies (with class and the state just being two examples). Lenin, Mao, etc did not fundamentally change the meaning of "communism", they just argued that it's the (perhaps impossible) end goal and therefore justifies the means.

If you want to use a term to describe the actual rather than aspirational ideology of the USSR and China, the term is "state capitalist", i.e. the state (or party) takes over the role of the owning class. Under these states, the state (or party) holds control and governance over all private property. In the USSR this was mostly implemented as the command economy, under Dengism this also makes use of "special economic zones" were individuals are allowed to act as private property owners as under capitalism but the state is always at liberty to revoke their ownership and reintegrate this property under state control.

Orwell was an anarchist and a supporter of the Spanish anarchists during the Civil War. The USSR deliberately prioritized ideological alignment over defeating the fascists and explicitly turned on the Spanish anarchists. This is one of the most important factors in his resentment towards the USSR and similar "communist" systems. In this context the nuances of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, Marxism-Leninism, Stalinism and other forms of authoritarianism and vanguardism don't really matter.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact of the matter is that under capitalism, you can choose to pool your resources with other people and start your own little communist society embedded in the capitalist society. As long as all of your participants are consenting, that's allowed. On the flipside, in a nominally communist society (or more accurately, a socialist society which is striving to achieve communism in the future, supposedly a scientifi…

Please don't resort to personal attacks. The issue with creating a communist society inside a capitalist society is that it is only possible for people who already have access to capital. People without access to capital do not have that option. If it is unjust to exclude others from private property or if the person who owns the private property gained in unjustly, then it is unjust if only those who own private pro…

There are plenty of people with reasonable amounts of capital who are enamoured with communism. If you can't make it work after pooling the resources of a dozen or so people, that just proves that you have no business managing the pooled resources of an entire nation.

The real problem with implementing communism, embedded in a capitalist society or otherwise, is you inevitability need to use violence to force your neighbors to join you. It's an intrinsically violent ideology that leads only to death and ruin.

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