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Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

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Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#21
post #4

This article makes a good point comparing the relatively small magnitude of fines paid to revenue earned. It follows that perhaps fines are not deterring. Perhaps a stronger deterrent would be injunction-based: companies found to be in violation of regulations and laws might be enjoined completely from operating in a commercial space. "One strike and you're out."

Revenue and profit are not the same though.

Profit margin for Big Tech is absurdly big compared to most other industries though, it makes much less of a difference than for grocers or other industries with razor-thin margins.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#22
post #13
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the pushback exactly against fining based on average yearly revenues ? The EU has been issuing fines to google as mentioned ($8 billion still owed) but I never understood why they can't simply charge a 20% of revenue within the EU. The fines are not to redeem some income for the EU, they're to deter bad actors. This is just not happening.

Because they do montages to make their local revenue unknowable. Through clever use of debt and licensing.

Not across the EU.

They have to book EU revenue somewhere in the EU, so it's entirely knowable how much they make.

This is also why the fines are based on revenue, to avoid transfer pricing shenanigans.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#23
Shareholders care more about net profit than revenue. Using revenue makes the number more clickbaity. Also, you claim this isn't a deterrent, but you don't explain why. How do we know that tech companies weren't just well-behaved last year? Or, should one week's revenue never ever be able to pay off a company's past year's fines, and we should always assume tech companies are more evil than that?

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#24
The concept of a corporation is fundamentally unjust. It doesn't make sense that there are entities which have more rights than people.

If I do a crime, I go to jail. If a corporation does a crime, they only need to pay a small fine.

Not to mention that they have many thousands of people working for them doing crimes on their behalf for which are never caught and never punished. Just the scale of a corporation, makes it impossible to prevent crime. They are crime factories by design.

If a nation state kills someone, it's not called murder. If a corporation commits fraud, it's not called fraud... So long as they don't run out of money.

Corporations can influence laws in ways that I can't. I can't even talk to a politician.

Corporations have far better access to government contracts and the tender process than regular citizens. There is subtle, but harmful corruption constantly taking place behind the scenes.

Not only that, but the people who work for corporations are, to some extent, shielded from the crimes that they commit on behalf of corporations as it limits their liability by design, not to mention all the opportunities for cover ups and deflection of liability that they provide. It absorbs and neutralizes liability. Nobody ends up taking responsibility. The crimes keep getting more frequent; corporations keep finding people who are more and more desperate and willing to commit crimes on their behalf. People create shell companies just to launder borrowed money to corporations, in the hope that they will get a well paid corporate job from them after their shell company runs out of money... The list of schemes/crimes is endless and beyond my imagination.

The first corporations ended up bankrupt. E.g. Both Dutch and British East India Company, South Sea Company, Mississippi Company... They ALL turned into bubbles and collapsed spectacularly, every single time. That was before the fiat monetary system came along and started propping them all up... Now the scam never ends. The entire economy is fully monopolized by these proven scam constructs. They suck up all opportunities and produce cheap, low quality products... but because they take away opportunities from everyone, nobody who isn't a corporate shareholder has surplus income and are therefore forced to buy cheap, low quality corporate products.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#25
The fines should be measured in units of time, not % of revenue, or some fixed dollar number. All other measures can be gamed, except time. For example, Meta would think twice about violating privacy if they were suspended from doing business for a month, or their fine amounted to a month of revenue with definite start and end dates.

We already do the same thing with people (taking away their freedom for lengths of time), it’s time to have the same punishments for corrupt corporations.

Shutting down their operations completely for lengths of time would also have other consequences besides financial.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#26
post #6
post #2

Either the fines need to be high enough until there is a material impact to shareholders, or natural persons who make decisions within the corporation needs to be held accountable (not just the legal person), OR, we need to fundamentally rethink what a corporation's charter must necessarily include (in addition to shareholder returns).

Could you imagine adding additional fine to shareholders? Like a reverse dividend? I wonder what disasters or blesses this will cause

No. That would destroy the stock markets in an instant. The way it has always been is that with a classic stock, the only risk an investor has is the money they paid someone to acquire the stock.

There exist other classes with actual post-buy liabilities, e.g. stock options, as one particularly unlucky poor sod discovered at the start of the 2020 plaguefest [1], but normally these are (supposed to be) heavily gated for actually qualified investors for precisely that reason.

Personally, I'd keep it that way... and nationalize companies that can't pay their fees, without paying out the shareholders. That way, the shareholders get punished, the jobs created by the company aren't lost, and the government gains something of value.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/06/17/20-y...

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#27
post #10
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you imagine adding additional fine to shareholders? Like a reverse dividend? I wonder what disasters or blesses this will cause

This SHOULD be the way as they are the ones who stand to gain the most. They should be the ones who lose the most if the actions of their responsibilities are nefarious.

Isn’t the share price getting decimated the punishment for shareholders?

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#28
post #27
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This SHOULD be the way as they are the ones who stand to gain the most. They should be the ones who lose the most if the actions of their responsibilities are nefarious.

Isn’t the share price getting decimated the punishment for shareholders?

That would be but the miniscule fines don't have any effect on the share price ?

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#29

The fines should be measured in units of time, not % of revenue, or some fixed dollar number. All other measures can be gamed, except time. For example, Meta would think twice about violating privacy if they were suspended from doing business for a month, or their fine amounted to a month of revenue with definite start and end dates. We already do the same thing with people (taking away their freedom for lengths of t…

Indeed, money is a condensate of time.

Re: Big Tech has already made enough money in 2024 to pay all its 2023 fines

#30

The fines should be measured in units of time, not % of revenue, or some fixed dollar number. All other measures can be gamed, except time. For example, Meta would think twice about violating privacy if they were suspended from doing business for a month, or their fine amounted to a month of revenue with definite start and end dates. We already do the same thing with people (taking away their freedom for lengths of t…

Is that not just also harming (again) their customers?
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