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The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu

11–20 of 152 posts

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#11
Throughout the 1960s to the mid-1980s it used to fashionable because it was so helpful to reconstitute manufacturing corporate culture around a three axis orientation of quality through SPC, of customers, and profit. This was done to avoid the distortions that ruin companies in the medium and long term including bankruptcy, layoffs, junk products, and all the related human BS that comes with it: corporate politics, in-fighting, lying, and so on. Think Ishikawa's tunnel analogy in his "What Is Total Quality Control?: The Japanese Way." Some organizations included additional emphasis on responsibilities to society.

I miss those days.

I've run into too many individuals in corporate American that:

* manage up/down

* think that if you're not hustling all the time actively managing your rep -- because everybody is doing it -- you're a chump

* A particularly ripe scenario to see this play out in tech sectors is cloud migration in companies that previously had large private data centers. The amount of BS and mid to upper level management cowardice that enables the in-fighting over capex, headcount, and control is truely disheartening.

Here in my backyard --- the US --- I sometimes seriously wonder if "American Management" is euphemism for political players in soap operas.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#12
This reminds me of the legal marketing field, which is one in which I have some experience. Just look at the billboards along the highways in major US cities and you'll be reminded how horrendously competitive law is in the US (and it's becoming more and more competitive by the year - lawyers are everywhere and covid encouraged a bunch of college students to consider law school).

I believe the vast majority of marketing businesses for lawyers are legit, but if there are scams then the bad actors could be encouraged by the idea that lawyers are the last people in the world who want to be outed as having fallen for a scam. Lawyers must put forth an image of being intelligent, informed, and aggressive; being the victim of a shady business doesn't fit this model.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#13
In the foreword for Animal Farm (in the del Rey edition, I think), Orwell writes that he was asked by tankie friends to keep quiet about the USSR's crimes because they were the best chance for Communism.

Bullshit from scientists is normal. They're just people after all. But people who join the Culture War on one side must necessarily choose Science as a side despite it being just a technique for knowledge, not a team. And then they're forced to defend it in some way.

I've posted years ago about how biotech science is sometimes faked https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25926188

I wonder whether this reaction to a con is necessarily Western, though. I've noticed it in Americans as well. They'll get conned by corrupt politicians and rather than admit the con, they'll defend them and pretend they weren't conned.

In the East, the attitude is different. It's more like "damn, well what can you do". Both failure-oriented but different. I wonder if it comes from different structures of pride.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#14
I've put myself into classical con situations out of curiosity.

Even when I purposefully seek to be conned, it's embarrassing to have it happen.

In my case, simple subway con artist performing the classic magic trick where you bet money to determine where the queen is under three cards. As a hobbyist magician I'm able to follow him as the subway scammer performs the drop, switching the queen for another card.

I'm not ready for the smooth talking however that the con artist employees afterwards. It's a humbling experience but one that I'm happy to have lost real $$$ so that I can remember the lesson for the rest of my life.

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Coming to terms with smooth talkers and how they're able to easily manipulate you, even if you are familiar with the tricks (both slight of hand tricks as well as 'Magicians Force' smooth talking / distractions).

It does make me want to practice classical street magic again, as it's so obviously associated with thievery and con-jobs. But street magic is perhaps the 'safe' way of doing it all so that no one gets upset afterwards.

But in any case, just imagine a street magician who makes your money disappear. That's what it feels like. Even at the amateur level, you'll fall prey to the 2nd level or 3rd levels of trickery, cause the street con-man has probably tricked overconfident amateurs before.

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I've heard stories of people who talk with street vendors selling lotions or other items as well and falling for those sales pitches. In my experience, it's similar to the street magician-thief and uses many similar techniques.

No one likes the fact that our actions, reactions and behaviors are so predictable that literal con-artists can make a living predicting and planning around our reactions to mislead us. (Or in safer circles, a street magician doing the same thing but for wonder/amazement rather than stealing your money)

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EDIT: For those not in the know, a drop and/or steal are magician slight of hand tricks that switch cards or other objects in a way that most people can't follow.

Magicians Force is a question that gives the illusion of choice, often a choice that doesn't matter for the trick. But the illusion of choice is sufficient to keep the audience's attention and let the audience think that they're still in control of the situation. Or in other words: smooth talking.

There are many ways to drop, steal or use Magicians Force. But using them all together in one smooth action is how magicians (or con-artists on the street) do their tricks.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#15
post #11

Throughout the 1960s to the mid-1980s it used to fashionable because it was so helpful to reconstitute manufacturing corporate culture around a three axis orientation of quality through SPC, of customers, and profit. This was done to avoid the distortions that ruin companies in the medium and long term including bankruptcy, layoffs, junk products, and all the related human BS that comes with it: corporate politics, i…

Can you elaborate why you think managing up/down is bad? Maybe we differ in definition, but I take it to mean customize how you communicate (zoom in / zoom out) based on the intended audiences typical scope and responsibilities.

I don’t want to tell my skip super in depth technical details they don’t need to know. It’s my job to process it for them.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#16
post #12

This reminds me of the legal marketing field, which is one in which I have some experience. Just look at the billboards along the highways in major US cities and you'll be reminded how horrendously competitive law is in the US (and it's becoming more and more competitive by the year - lawyers are everywhere and covid encouraged a bunch of college students to consider law school). I believe the vast majority of market…

My (very naive) thinking would be that lawyers are the worst demographic to con, since they have the skills and resources to try and make themselves whole again (at the expense of the conman), maybe with a few NDAs throw in for good measure. Is this not the case?

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#18

In the foreword for Animal Farm (in the del Rey edition, I think), Orwell writes that he was asked by tankie friends to keep quiet about the USSR's crimes because they were the best chance for Communism. Bullshit from scientists is normal. They're just people after all. But people who join the Culture War on one side must necessarily choose Science as a side despite it being just a technique for knowledge, not a team…

Stupidity in large human organizations does not favor or exclude the east or west. It's endemic to humans. Wasn't that the essential criticism of "The Lord of the Flies" and, in terms of putative solutions, Volaire's satire in "Candide"?

Leaving the conversation at I saw this or that ... is too incomplete. The question is what are we going to do about it. Management at scientific institutions should have more backbone not less on BS data reporting.

Re: The immediate victims of a con would rather act as if the con never happened

#20
post #12

This reminds me of the legal marketing field, which is one in which I have some experience. Just look at the billboards along the highways in major US cities and you'll be reminded how horrendously competitive law is in the US (and it's becoming more and more competitive by the year - lawyers are everywhere and covid encouraged a bunch of college students to consider law school). I believe the vast majority of market…

My (very naive) thinking would be that lawyers are the worst demographic to con, since they have the skills and resources to try and make themselves whole again (at the expense of the conman), maybe with a few NDAs throw in for good measure. Is this not the case?

My take is that lawyers will have to compare the damages they suffered to the potential harm their reputation will sustain if they become well known for being victims. Did they pay $1,000 for a subpar product? If so, they might not act beyond issuing some threats. However, if they lost $100,000 to a thief then they probably will act.

I have spoken with many lawyers who have threatened marketers with lawsuits, and in many cases the threat will help the lawyer. I have had a few lawyers tell me they WILL NOT file a lawsuit (why sue for $500 considering the time and court fees), but that it only costs about 60 cents to send a verbose letter using their firm's letterhead. They understand the old warning "if you sue for a cow, you may end up losing a cow".

Just as with a successful con against esteemed scientists, any skilled conman will know his target well and understand how he can fly just below the radar and probably avoid getting called out and destroyed.

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