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IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

nytimes.com

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Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#191

Post by leereeves »

consp wrote: post #159
leereeves wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Norquist considers a public filing option a tax increase by stealth and opposes it automatically. When phrased that way, it sounds ridiculous. But those are the author's words, not Norquist's or ATR's. What Norquist and ATR want is for people to be aware of taxes. In their words (from the article): "More than any other public policy, the way the government raises revenue—how much, at what rates, under what circumst…

> And even the article admits that making taxes easier to file has the side effect of "decoupling public sentiment and policy changes" (that is, making "tax increases by stealth" easier) How on earth is this possible? Instead of not having any clue, you actually get to see everything. My taxes have been automatic for years and I still have to approve every step of them along the way and I get to see and approve every…

> The big difference is I now not have to spend hours researching everything

I think you've answered your own question. If it weren't automatic, you would spend hours learning about tax policy, what is taxed, what is deductible, and what credits exist.

Personally, I learned most of what I know about taxes while preparing my own.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#192

Post by Dalewyn »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #179
neilkk wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

patio11 has a huge and well known bias here, which is that he wants to claim, not necessarily with evidence, that all inefficiency is caused by governments and not by the private sector. A comparison of tax filing in the United States with other countries, including those where governments are much bigger and more interventionist, leads to a different conclusion.

Indeed! Japan’s system is very efficient, and he has lived there for some time, so he should be familiar. Similarly, it took the US forever to implement an instant payment system (commercial banks built Zelle via Early Warning Systems and RTP via The Clearinghouse, and the Fed finally built FedNow after Congress directed them to in order to ensure universal access) while India and Brazil rapidly rolled out their impl…

>Japan’s system is very efficient,

Yes, because there is only one tax authority (国税庁, Kokuzeichou, National Tax Agency).

Here in the US, we have more than one tax authority:

We have the IRS, which is the federal tax authority.

Each state then has their own tax authority.

Each county then has their own tax authority.

Each city then might have their own tax authority.

And we must submit filings and returns with and pay taxes to all of them as applicable, and they all operate on their own laws, regulations, and taxes.

To reframe this, let's talk about sales tax. In Japan, there is only one nationwide sales tax; because there is only one tax authority.

In the US, sales tax might be levied at the state, county, and city levels as applicable (federal doesn't levy sales tax, as far as I'm aware). Some might not have sales tax, others might, and they are all different rates. The sale tax in one city will be different from its neighbouring city.

TL;DR: Paying taxes in the US is complicated because everyone wants their taxes.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#193

Post by labster »

OfficialTurkey wrote: post #162
koolba wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "More than any other public policy, the way the government raises revenue—how much, at what rates, under what circumstances, from whom, and for whom—has the greatest impact on our economy’s performance." A perfect world would have people writing a check for their entire annual tax just before stepping into the voting booth.

What in the libertarian nonsense is this? Why not make people ride public transportation or use a public restroom or sit in a park or read about the history of the interstate system or visit a national park just before voting?

We should do voting at the annual BLM mustang round-up so voters can get a free pony.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#194

Post by lokar »

koolba wrote: post #158
leereeves wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Norquist considers a public filing option a tax increase by stealth and opposes it automatically. When phrased that way, it sounds ridiculous. But those are the author's words, not Norquist's or ATR's. What Norquist and ATR want is for people to be aware of taxes. In their words (from the article): "More than any other public policy, the way the government raises revenue—how much, at what rates, under what circumst…

> "More than any other public policy, the way the government raises revenue—how much, at what rates, under what circumstances, from whom, and for whom—has the greatest impact on our economy’s performance." A perfect world would have people writing a check for their entire annual tax just before stepping into the voting booth.

And the large number who get a net payment instead would get a check right then?

I don’t think that will accomplish what you expect.

One of the main reasons conservatives and libertarians want filing to be hard is to confuse people into thinking the income tax hurts them, when in reality it benefits many of them.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#195

Post by marisnom »

gameshot911 wrote: post #124
eddd-ddde wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from Mexico, it's honestly insane that our system works as good as it does compared to the US. 1. All my incomes are automatically filed. 2. Each month I say "yes this is correct" on the website, and pay immediately via any bank. 3. At the end of the tax year, the system calculates if they own me money automatically, I give it my bank account and in some days I have my return. It even handles tax deductibl…

Mexico system is crazy complex and confusing. An archaic, windows-only Java app to generate pairs of password-protected keys, which then have to be fed back into the system to declare your tax status. And they expire every so often, so you have to track down your old keys from years ago and remember the password. Confused? Just set up a SAT appointment, they'll be with you in... weeks. Having to declare your tax cate…

From what I understand it's easy if you are under a salary but every other regime is complicated af. They also obligate you to get the electronic signature (FIEL) by going to their office, and like you said it takes weeks to get an appointment

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#196

Post by mrmanner »

Dalewyn wrote: post #192
toomuchtodo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! Japan’s system is very efficient, and he has lived there for some time, so he should be familiar. Similarly, it took the US forever to implement an instant payment system (commercial banks built Zelle via Early Warning Systems and RTP via The Clearinghouse, and the Fed finally built FedNow after Congress directed them to in order to ensure universal access) while India and Brazil rapidly rolled out their impl…

>Japan’s system is very efficient, Yes, because there is only one tax authority (国税庁, Kokuzeichou, National Tax Agency). Here in the US, we have more than one tax authority: We have the IRS, which is the federal tax authority. Each state then has their own tax authority. Each county then has their own tax authority. Each city then might have their own tax authority. And we must submit filings and returns with and pay…

> Paying taxes in the US is complicated because everyone wants their taxes

Everyone wants their taxes and refuses to cooperate. Most countries have some kind of local or regional taxes, and the single tax authority is responsible for collecting and distributing them all.

I get that the federal level in the US is a bit special (EU for example doesn’t tax citizens directly, instead the member states pay fees from their tax revenue). The local tax authorities per county surprised me though - what a mess…

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#197

Post by r3trohack3r »

lokar wrote: post #194
koolba wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "More than any other public policy, the way the government raises revenue—how much, at what rates, under what circumstances, from whom, and for whom—has the greatest impact on our economy’s performance." A perfect world would have people writing a check for their entire annual tax just before stepping into the voting booth.

And the large number who get a net payment instead would get a check right then? I don’t think that will accomplish what you expect. One of the main reasons conservatives and libertarians want filing to be hard is to confuse people into thinking the income tax hurts them, when in reality it benefits many of them.

Taxes in the US are not due annually. They are due on an ongoing basis.

You do not get a net payment. You paid your taxes throughout the year every paycheck. Your employer likely files quarterly.

At the end of the year, if you tally up your taxes and figure out you’ve given too much of your money to the government, you get some of your money back.

It’s called a refund. Not a payment.

I’d put those ongoing taxes throughout the year into the bucket of “shadow taxes” GP refers to. I suspect many people do not view their refund checks as a no interest short term loan they floated to the government. Their refund check came from their paycheck.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#198

Post by lokar »

r3trohack3r wrote: post #197
lokar wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the large number who get a net payment instead would get a check right then? I don’t think that will accomplish what you expect. One of the main reasons conservatives and libertarians want filing to be hard is to confuse people into thinking the income tax hurts them, when in reality it benefits many of them.

Taxes in the US are not due annually. They are due on an ongoing basis. You do not get a net payment. You paid your taxes throughout the year every paycheck. Your employer likely files quarterly. At the end of the year, if you tally up your taxes and figure out you’ve given too much of your money to the government, you get some of your money back. It’s called a refund. Not a payment. I’d put those ongoing taxes throu…

Some very low income workers that get the EIC end up with a net payment.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#199

Post by morelisp »

leereeves wrote: post #187
consp wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A perfect world would have people writing a check for their entire annual tax just before stepping into the voting booth. That would definitely be a horrible idea. No, I won't vote for drivable roads because I just payed my taxes, potholes be damned. And afterwards complain about the potholes anyway.

I think most people would still vote for drivable roads, and that there are a lot of government policies that could be eliminated before drivable roads are even on the table.

My experience in Omaha suggests drivable roads get sacrificed much sooner than one might expect. (And no, not for something nice like bike paths or even like, functional sidewalks.)

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#200

Post by mcherm »

pezezin wrote: post #190
toomuchtodo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! Japan’s system is very efficient, and he has lived there for some time, so he should be familiar. Similarly, it took the US forever to implement an instant payment system (commercial banks built Zelle via Early Warning Systems and RTP via The Clearinghouse, and the Fed finally built FedNow after Congress directed them to in order to ensure universal access) while India and Brazil rapidly rolled out their impl…

Really? I live in Japan, last month I had to fill my taxes, and I found the process to be really convoluted and annoying compared to my home country (Spain). Likewise, banks feel really obsolete and inefficient here. I shudder to imagine how bad the American system is to make Japan look good :/

My wife calculates and submits our taxes (here in the US). It typically takes her 40 to 60 hours to complete, and that's after spending around $100 USD on tax preparation software to make it easier.

To be fair, our taxes are more complex than many people's (I live in a different state than my employer and we have some stock market investments), but it's still ABSURDLY difficult.

And I'm not counting the time needed to respond to Federal or State follow-ups 9 months later where they question the values we provided. That happens to us about every 2-3 years. So far it has only once found a minor error on our part.

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