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FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

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Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#541

Post by vc8f6vVV »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #247
laweijfmvo wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether it’s true or not, I feel like I control my fate when driving a lot more than when flying. I can take precautions (defensive driving, avoiding bad conditions, etc.) but have little to no control once I board a plane.

When someone runs a red light at speed and t-bones you on your left you're dead no matter how defensively you drive. The illusion of control doesn't change your odds much.

It does change odds. So when considering defensive driving the rule "flying is safer" may not hold.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#542

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

tavavex wrote: post #445
roody15 wrote: post #419

Interesting timeline. Following the two fatal crashes involving the MCAS system and the 737 Max … The FAA gave Boeing until Dec of 2022 to implement a fix. The fix was to reconfigure the 737 Max with 2 sensors (instead of one) and include an manual shutoff Guess what happened? Boeing didn’t fix anything.. instead they cried to congress that the fix is too expensive and they cannot get it done. So what happens is cong…

That is pretty concerning. The way how Boeing can get its way simply by threatening to can the entire MAX program (which they'd never actually do) shows that there's a very deep level of integration between the US government and its biggest companies, especially one like Boeing that's often seen as kind of a minor point of national pride. Not only that, but the article mentions that the 737 MAXs got an exemption on p…

The integration of government and these big businesses is one thing. The fact that it always seems to run in the direction of undermining citizen safety and protections, and weakening the country's capacity to actually hold these companies accountable to even national level interests is astonishing.

What purpose does this integration serve if not to allow the government leverage? These days you have the US government acting like its a 2nd-world power, just desperately trying to hang on to any businesses willing to grace the US with their presence, instead of a nation that holds the key to glibal economic power. Frankly it's pathetic.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#543

Post by ntkaspca1931 »

jdksmdbtbdnmsm wrote: post #201
intunderflow wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that when they merged with McDonnell Douglas their new (McDonnell) management pushed out the good engineering culture and dropped their quality standards in a chase for more profit, leading to engineering experiencing the dead sea effect.

in other words: capitalism, the system we've designed our whole society around

There is also capitalism in Switzerland, Singapore, Australia and countless other countries.

America looks like it's speed running the soviet union and south africa.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#544

Post by PaulHoule »

tavavex wrote: post #445
roody15 wrote: post #419

Interesting timeline. Following the two fatal crashes involving the MCAS system and the 737 Max … The FAA gave Boeing until Dec of 2022 to implement a fix. The fix was to reconfigure the 737 Max with 2 sensors (instead of one) and include an manual shutoff Guess what happened? Boeing didn’t fix anything.. instead they cried to congress that the fix is too expensive and they cannot get it done. So what happens is cong…

That is pretty concerning. The way how Boeing can get its way simply by threatening to can the entire MAX program (which they'd never actually do) shows that there's a very deep level of integration between the US government and its biggest companies, especially one like Boeing that's often seen as kind of a minor point of national pride. Not only that, but the article mentions that the 737 MAXs got an exemption on p…

Boeing doesn't have a real business plan until they have a plan to replace the 737. Boeing and Airbus have been going crazy over the past 30 years developing widebody airliners, some of which were solidly rejected by the market, but domestic flyers (most of them) are stuck with a 1967 design. It's a disaster when it comes to managing the social and environmental impacts of air travel.

A ride in this plane

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-Jet_family

radically changed my view of what is possible in a small airliner, because it has a squared-off cross section it feels much larger on the inside than a 737... And this is a previous generation plane, now there is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-Jet_E2_family

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A220

There's a crisis brewing at America's small airports in that they've really stopped building the sub-50 seat regional jets that serve smaller airports. (In the small city near me, almost every organization lists the local airport as a weakness in a SWOT analysis) Manufacturers know that airliners around 70 seats would be dramatically lower cost to operate than the status quo, enough that prices would drop and service quality would increase and filling the extra seats would be easy. Trouble is the unions won't let the airlines upgrade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_clause

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#545

Post by Dah00n »

richardwhiuk wrote: post #465
roody15 wrote: post #419

Interesting timeline. Following the two fatal crashes involving the MCAS system and the 737 Max … The FAA gave Boeing until Dec of 2022 to implement a fix. The fix was to reconfigure the 737 Max with 2 sensors (instead of one) and include an manual shutoff Guess what happened? Boeing didn’t fix anything.. instead they cried to congress that the fix is too expensive and they cannot get it done. So what happens is cong…

Fortunately, Boeings work on the 737 MAX was independently checked by non-US aviation authorities who aren't subject to US Congress provisions.

"All good boss. Let's certify this!"

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#546

Post by bobthepanda »

peyton wrote: post #523
game_the0ry wrote: post #482

The only remedy at this point is to hold executives financially and morally culpable. Anyone opposed to seeing the entire C-suite and board of directors having their bonuses clawed back and sent to jail? I'm not. Let the guillotine come out, I want to see heads roll.

From FAA.gov: > We're responsible for the safety of civil aviation. https://www.faa.gov/about/mission/activities Maybe the people responsible are the people who say they’re responsible?

The FAA gets authorized by Congress. Congress is actually the one with the constitutional power to legislate, so can override executive agencies like the grandparent describes.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#547

Post by danpalmer »

wasmitnetzen wrote: post #497
rustymonday wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is wrong because people will not want to fly on this plane, and carriers will be less likely to buy this model. This hurts Boeing's bottom line.

They've sold nearly 6000 Max's. Seems like the market accepts that behaviour.

It's a sticky product. There isn't an alternative from Boeing in this market segment that's viable in a modern fleet from what I understand, and airlines tend to be either Boeing or Airbus, so it would take a huge push to get an airline to migrate from one to the other – possibly multiple failed models and significant compensation to fund building up the maintenance infrastructure for the other manufacturer and pilot retraining.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#548

Post by mulmen »

shriek wrote: post #259
thfuran wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's not like driving is especially safe. It's just that traffic deaths are so routine that they're not generally widely reported, while pretty much every major issue with an airplane gets national attention. In the US, traffic deaths amount to the equivalent of a fully loaded 747 lost with all hands every couple days.

Because the chance of you dying when something goes wrong in an aircraft at high altitude is significantly higher (almost 100%) than you dying in a car crash. There's still a chance of you getting ambulance on road accidents but you're plummeting to your death on major aircraft malfunction.

> Because the chance of you dying when something goes wrong in an aircraft at high altitude is significantly higher (almost 100%) than you dying in a car crash.

It isn't though. Airliners have suffered in-flight engine explosions and decompressions multiple times since 2001 without fatalities. The last time a structural failure of an aircraft resulted in a crash was in 2000 and it was a design that entered service in 1959. Modern airliners don't just fall out of the sky. They feature robust designs and highly competent crews.

Cars regularly crash fatally without mechanical failures at all. And that says nothing of the dire state of car maintenance among the general population.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#549

Post by HL33tibCe7 »

lesam wrote: post #522
givemeethekeys wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I appreciate that it’s a joke made to make a point, but I would prefer that the state keep prisoners safe from being raped in prison, regardless of what crime they committed.

I'm glad someone mentioned this. The tacit acceptance of physical violence in prisons is so widespread in our society.

It's weird because a comment like "these executives deserve to be raped as punishment" would be considered disgusting and unfunny: frankly, you'd probably be made a social pariah for saying something like that. That statement is morally equivalent to the "pounding in the ass prison" statement, which is far more socially acceptable.

I genuinely think it's something that future generations will look back upon in horror.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#550

Post by marssaxman »

jacquesm wrote: post #427
roody15 wrote: post #419

Interesting timeline. Following the two fatal crashes involving the MCAS system and the 737 Max … The FAA gave Boeing until Dec of 2022 to implement a fix. The fix was to reconfigure the 737 Max with 2 sensors (instead of one) and include an manual shutoff Guess what happened? Boeing didn’t fix anything.. instead they cried to congress that the fix is too expensive and they cannot get it done. So what happens is cong…

Any kind of law that mentions a company by name should be automatically rejected, unless it is to add more limitations based on past (bad) performance and then only to document the reason the law exists, never to provide exemptions.

Washington State has been making Boeing-specific laws for decades, without having to mention them by name - the legislature just writes up a bill which sets such-and-such a lower tax rate for every aircraft manufacturer which employs at least so many workers, et voila! There happens to be only one.
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