FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s • Hacker News Board

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#341

Post by MadnessASAP » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:35 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #153

rootusrootus wrote: post #97

One troubling aspect of this is that it appears Alaska had reason to believe something was wrong with this plane but basically ignored it. They were getting pressurization warnings on prior flights, but the only action they took was restricting the plane from flying ETOPS routes. They're the dominant carrier in my area, so these sorts of screwups make me nervous. I can't easily avoid using them without a fair amount…

Things like this are always alarming until you learn the base rate. Unfortunately, I cannot find a quick reference for this, but many many flights take off with some anomaly noted in the technical log book.

I can't link you an independent source just my word as an aircraft mechanic.

I have never seen a 100% serviceable aircraft, as far as I'm concerned a aircraft where everything works to spec and the spec works to needs is a myth that we strive for but can never achieve.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#342

Post by schiffern » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:37 PM UTC

mertd wrote: post #245

Miraste wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't trusted Alaska since the Flight 261 crash, where they failed to do basic maintenance for so long that the screw threads in the stabilizer system wore away and locked the plane in the "straight down" orientation. And fired and sued a mechanic who reported the problem. 100% fatalities.

That's more than two decades ago. People involved must have long left the company. They might even be working for other airlines.

That's not how organizations work. You can't just slowly take out the "bad" people and replace them with "good" people and expect that to fix anything. It's the wrong mental model.

Organizations are sticky. They get stuck in a rut, basically. The slow trickle of new people gets indoctrinated into the Company Way (or else selectively ejected), and the people that are able to leave often use it as a lesson of what not to do.

In short, turnover isn't a magic bullet.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#343

Post by JonChesterfield » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:37 PM UTC

mnbion wrote: post #331

Most Airbus manufacturing happens in or near big cities like Toulouse, Hamburg, and Seville. These cities have plenty of engineering talent and plenty of colleges, universities, and other companies creating and nurturing this talent. Meanwhile most Boeing manufacturing seems to be taking place in rural areas (or "flyover states" as you Americans put it). This is of course because of the local and state subsidies that…

The designs are unsound and the strategy for fixing is to persuade the regulators to look the other way. No way to blame that on the manufacturing teams.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#344

Post by hyperpape » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:38 PM UTC

mnbion wrote: post #331

Most Airbus manufacturing happens in or near big cities like Toulouse, Hamburg, and Seville. These cities have plenty of engineering talent and plenty of colleges, universities, and other companies creating and nurturing this talent. Meanwhile most Boeing manufacturing seems to be taking place in rural areas (or "flyover states" as you Americans put it). This is of course because of the local and state subsidies that…

Which rural areas are you thinking of? Toulouse and Seville are really not that big (they’re both around the size of Oklahoma City when considering their metro areas). Hamburg is quite a bit bigger.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#345

Post by zekrioca » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:38 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #256

nerdjon wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have made the decision that unless I absolutely can’t avoid it I am avoiding Boeing for the near future entirely. But a 737 max is full no go for me no matter what the situation is. I will do multiple stops before stepping foot on one. Personally I fly exclusively JetBlue in the US and they use Airbus almost exclusively. They have a few of whatever that other brand is. No Boeing.

Embraer, the Brazilian-made aircraft. They're being replaced with Airbus A220s, which was called a Bombardier CSeries before Airbus bought Bombardier's airliner division.

(Embraer) which Boeing tried buying but the deal was reverted due to the failure of the 737-max..

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#346

Post by majormajor » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:38 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #254

ls612 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the unfortunate incident in Japan this week, the Boeing 787, a plane designed in the 2000s and flying since 2013, is now the only passenger airliner without a hull loss. So they are clearly capable of producing modern safe airliners post merger.

There was an engineer who got fired for worrying publicly about the fire safety of the carbon fiber hulls during the 787 leadup. It turned out I worked in the same building he had, and I found his old office. Word is after he left they locked it up, like a crime scene. I think they were worried his whistleblowing would turn to leaks and I guess they thought his office would have some sort of evidence? It was an inter…

> It turned out I worked in the same building he had, and I found his old office. Word is after he left they locked it up, like a crime scene. I think they were worried his whistleblowing would turn to leaks and I guess they thought his office would have some sort of evidence? It was an interior office so no big loss real estate wise, but that was a super weird chapter.

If they were worried about a lawsuit from him they might want to preserve everything in case it was subpoenaed regardless of guilt or innocent - possibly especially if they thought his claims were wrong.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#347

Post by elsonrodriguez » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:39 PM UTC

The whole point of this aircraft is to avoid modern safety regulations.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#348

Post by SoftTalker » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:40 PM UTC

cellis wrote: post #317

bombcar wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NTSB will find it, they’re surprisingly thorough.

How would triangulation of that small of an item be done?

They'll know from flight data recorder the exact time the decompression occurred. They'll know where and at what altitude the airplane was in the sky at that time and in which direction and speed it was moving. It's nearly a high school physics problem at that point to calculate where the door landed.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#349

Post by coliveira » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:41 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #241

AdrianB1 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is correct. However MDD was manufacturing key military products (F-15, F-18) and it was doing bad financially, going bankrupt and jeopardizing the fighter plane production and maintenance was a "national security" problem that forced the Boeing acquisition of MDD.

How was MDD going bankrupt Boeings problem? If it’s a national security issue, that’s the governments problem to fix, surely?

Boeing is in its position only because of a close relationship with government. They didn't get rich because of their brains. They will do anything for government to maintain the current benefits.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#350

Post by shihab » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 9:41 PM UTC

wkat4242 wrote: post #56

throw0101d wrote: post #29

Good book describing the cultural change from engineering-focus to business-focus of Boeing: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55994102-flying-blind * https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/646497/flying-blind...

I watched a documentary on Netflix recently that alleged that a lot of this change came from importing McDonnell Douglas management into Boeing after the acquisition. I wonder if the book concurs on that, I don't have time to read it right now. If this is the case I wonder if it could be reversible.

After seeng your comment, I just went ahead and watched the doc, and I frankly I find myself in a state of rage right now. From my limited understanding, I had this impression this was an engineering failure. And you know, when you have a complicated machine, sometimes shit happens.

But it wasn't that at all. Boeing knew clearly what the dangers of MCAS system were, they went to great lengths to completely hide the presence of the system from the world before delivery of the planes. Within days of the first crash, they knew it was MCAS, and kept trying to blame uneducated "foreign" pilots, kept trying to go on and tell the world again and again it was safe to fly, until that second crash happened. I understand greed, we all have that, but I don't understand how a company-wide culture can get so toxic, how utterly devoid of humanity do you have to be that your first concern after that crash and knowing there might be more deaths coming, is keeping wall street happy.

And what the hell FAA? 1) they didn't regulate properly before the plane was delivered, 2) After first crash they knew how dangerous the plane is, but didn't ground it (TAMARA report), 3) After second crash, you had the transportation secratary basically saying 737 Max was "innocent untill proven guilty" so let it fly before China forced its hand, 4) No criminal proescution in the end for those fanatic executives, just a cash fine.

And today this happens.