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FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

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Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#211
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least Airbus seems to be competent in building safe aircraft. Prior to new models released in the last ~10yrs-ish, Boeing made the safest planes in the sky (as measured by passenger miles). Many of those planes are still flying and still doing great. For me the interesting question is what changed in Boeing's design, testing and/or manufacturing processes which is apparently resulting in worse safety performance…

After the unfortunate incident in Japan this week, the Boeing 787, a plane designed in the 2000s and flying since 2013, is now the only passenger airliner without a hull loss. So they are clearly capable of producing modern safe airliners post merger.

I don’t feel like hull loss without context is a meaningful metric of anything. At the end of the day they are airplanes flown by pilots. You could have a less safe design flown by highly competent pilots and never lose a plane, or an incredibly sophisticated, technically advanced aircraft where the pilot makes a decision resulting the destruction of the aircraft.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#212
post #91

Ways in which you can experience an unexpected cabin decompression to the next world...Or join the mile-high never-come-back club, on a Boeing 737 MAX... 1- Loose bolts: "Boeing Urges Airlines to Check for Loose Bolt in newer 737 MAX Aircraft" - https://www.european-views.com/2023/12/boeing-urges-airlines... 2- Leave the anti-icing system on for more than 5 min after non-icing conditions: "Boeing still hasn't fixed t…

Honestly a website for this wouldn’t be a bad idea. In future flights if I’m going to look if there is a 737 max I’m gonna change my flight .

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maybe 3 years (1000 days) of flying to date per aircraft on average It's probably a lot less. 950 out of those 1300 aircraft were delivered in the last three years, and the other 350 were grounded throughout most of 2019 and 2020.

Cool, thanks. So probably a factor of ~2 fewer miles, or twice the accident rate.

divide by the # of passengers...

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#214

At least Airbus seems to be competent in building safe aircraft. I would not be surprised though if Boeing's sales drop if the US government brings in tariffs or etc to try and force companies to buy their flying coffins.

The A380 is the best plane ever made in the entirety of human history. It’s a damn shame it’s not used more. I’m hoping new fuel efficient engines make it viable again because there simply is NOTHING like first class on an A380.

It will inevitably come back in some form in the long term as air traffic keeps increasing. It's much harder to build a new runway and a new terminal in busy airports (ask Heathrow) than to add a floor to a plane.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#215
post #153

One troubling aspect of this is that it appears Alaska had reason to believe something was wrong with this plane but basically ignored it. They were getting pressurization warnings on prior flights, but the only action they took was restricting the plane from flying ETOPS routes. They're the dominant carrier in my area, so these sorts of screwups make me nervous. I can't easily avoid using them without a fair amount…

Things like this are always alarming until you learn the base rate. Unfortunately, I cannot find a quick reference for this, but many many flights take off with some anomaly noted in the technical log book.

And it's not like driving is especially safe. It's just that traffic deaths are so routine that they're not generally widely reported, while pretty much every major issue with an airplane gets national attention. In the US, traffic deaths amount to the equivalent of a fully loaded 747 lost with all hands every couple days.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#216
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two of those are manufacturing mistakes, and it seems likely the door one is as well. Not that that helps the passengers, but they're not systemic design flaws. That anti-icing system is deranged, though. They effectively installed a timed detonator on the engines and want a safety exemption for it.

Ah you’re right. They’re not design flaws, just manufacturing issues, so sign me up for the first flight when the max flies again… People falling out the sky because the wing falls off because someone forgot to bolt it on aren’t going to care if it’s a design issue or a manufacturing issue. Boeing is doing both, so the blame lies with them either way.

The statement pointing out that it’s a manufacturing error (I’m guessing) was not intended to be solution to the problem. It pointed out that those problems have less to do the certification of the design and more to do with a manufacturing defect. If the manufacturer created parts that were up to specifications, these things would have not been a problem. This is a very important distinction because a design flaw is a much bigger deal for this aircraft type than that poorly manufactured components.

Boing is still at fault, yes, but we should exercise restraint in becoming too reductionistic on complicated engineering problems.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#217
post #91

Ways in which you can experience an unexpected cabin decompression to the next world...Or join the mile-high never-come-back club, on a Boeing 737 MAX... 1- Loose bolts: "Boeing Urges Airlines to Check for Loose Bolt in newer 737 MAX Aircraft" - https://www.european-views.com/2023/12/boeing-urges-airlines... 2- Leave the anti-icing system on for more than 5 min after non-icing conditions: "Boeing still hasn't fixed t…

Two of those are manufacturing mistakes, and it seems likely the door one is as well. Not that that helps the passengers, but they're not systemic design flaws. That anti-icing system is deranged, though. They effectively installed a timed detonator on the engines and want a safety exemption for it.

This looks like manufacture cost cutting - an issue no amount of good design/engineering can fix.

Boeing is no longer engineering focused. It’s a numbers business pumping out planes as fast and as cheap as they can get away with.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#218
post #198
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Separating “manufacturing mistakes” only makes sense if someone else is responsible for manufacturing. As far as I know, Boeing is responsible for both the design and the manufacturing of these aircraft so the difference is purely informational, but in terms of criticizing Boeing mostly irrelevant.

Spirit AeroSystems makes the fuselage for the 737 Max. [1][2] It's even in the article: "Spirit AeroSystems, which makes the fuselages for the planes, referred CNBC to Boeing when asked about the incident" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_AeroSystems [2] https://www.spiritaero.com/

At some point it has to be simple liability for the final seller, ignoring all subcontractors.

Otherwise there’s too many shellgames you can play.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#219
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single explosive decompression event, comprising the spontaneous loss of an assembly the size of an entire exit door, two months off the factory floor? I should certainly hope they’d take a gander at the others before I’d sit next to one. Especially with the memory of the last time they chose to keep flying 737 MAXes instead of fixing the defect in the rest of the fleet, at the cost of 157 lives, not even 5 years a…

Let's also consider just how much worse this situation could have been. The door panel blew out next to the one seat that happened to be unoccupied, and it happened at 16,000 ft instead of 26,000 ft.

And even so, sucked the shirt right off the boy in the middle seat! I shudder to imagine how things would have gone 20 minutes further in to the flight.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#220
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two of those are manufacturing mistakes, and it seems likely the door one is as well. Not that that helps the passengers, but they're not systemic design flaws. That anti-icing system is deranged, though. They effectively installed a timed detonator on the engines and want a safety exemption for it.

A manufacturing mistake is, in all likelihood, another type of systemic fault. Why would you think only one aircraft would suffer from it?

Back in 2014[1] Al Jazeera (the international edition) had a pretty good in-depth report of issues with the manufacturing line for the 787.

There are known issues regarding quality assurance at Boeing for a decade now, they keep going down the drain. The MBAs from McDonnell-Douglas won, and properly tarnished Boeing's image...

[1] https://www.aljazeera.com/program/investigations/2014/7/20/t...

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