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IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

nytimes.com

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Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#81

Post by akira2501 »

hackernewds wrote: post #70
nerdponx wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is a combination of industry lobbying (see elsewhere in this thread) and partisan politics that result in deliberately under-funding the IRS (for a general notion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast , and for more directly relevant events see https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted )

[flagged]

Precisely. They'll spend $80b to hire "agents." They won't spend a time to make the system actually easy to use. They're not underfunded, they're just incompetent.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#82

Post by mjamesaustin »

hackernewds wrote: post #70
nerdponx wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is a combination of industry lobbying (see elsewhere in this thread) and partisan politics that result in deliberately under-funding the IRS (for a general notion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast , and for more directly relevant events see https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted )

[flagged]

IRS funding is objectively efficient. Every additional $1 spent on IRS budget brings in $5-9 of additional funding through enforcement.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57444

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#83

Post by actuallyalys »

hackernewds wrote: post #70
nerdponx wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is a combination of industry lobbying (see elsewhere in this thread) and partisan politics that result in deliberately under-funding the IRS (for a general notion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast , and for more directly relevant events see https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted )

[flagged]

They did just get a big boost, but this was after years of stagnant funding, as the link in the comment you replied to shows.

Comparing government agencies' efficiency to private entities' is tricky since they tend to have different goals and constraints, but I'm not sure 87,000 agents is that many considering the number of households and business that have to pay taxes, and the number of non-profits that don't pay taxes but still file financial information.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#84

Post by akira2501 »

ethbr1 wrote: post #10
webwielder2 wrote: post #4

[flagged]

Turns out, the easiest way to get rid of taxes is to not pay anyone to run the tax system. Bonus: being able to claim you're being fiscally responsible. (Despite taxes being a revenue generator and salary to administer them being revenue-positive)

Turns out, that's not even what's happening.

In the 1950s, the citizens paid 50% of the treasury revenues. Business paid 25% and excise taxes covered the other 25%.

Today, the citizens pay 85% of the treasury revenues. Business pays 7% and excise taxes cover the other 7%.

They're not trying to "get rid of taxes" they're "massively shifting the burden onto the individual."

This, by the way, isn't a republican vs. democrat problem. This is easily observable by noticing how both parties do the same things once they have "power." There is no real difference between the "parties" on this one.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#85

Post by yokem55 »

hackernewds wrote: post #70
nerdponx wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is a combination of industry lobbying (see elsewhere in this thread) and partisan politics that result in deliberately under-funding the IRS (for a general notion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast , and for more directly relevant events see https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted )

[flagged]

The agents being hired are mostly just support agents answering the phone. And on net the investment in improving the IRS is a net positive on revenue because they can more effectively go after folk who are cheating.

It's amazing how some folks will be ardently opposed to "defunding the police" ... except for the tax police.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#86

Post by whakim »

hackernewds wrote: post #70
nerdponx wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is a combination of industry lobbying (see elsewhere in this thread) and partisan politics that result in deliberately under-funding the IRS (for a general notion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast , and for more directly relevant events see https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted )

[flagged]

This claim is not correct in several ways. The $80B was not earmarked for hiring agents; that was an additional $80B for the entire agency spread over 10 years. While some of that money might be used to hire additional agents, it will also be used to upgrade old technology (the IRS still uses software from the 1950s), make fixed capital investments that have been long-deferred, regulate third-party tax preparers, provide better customer service, crack down on tax evasion and improve enforcement.

Additionally, this funding needs to be set in the context of an agency whose budget has shrank 20% over the last decade and whose staffing is set to further shrink through attrition and retirements. The IRS Commissioner testified that the IRS would have to hire 52,000 employees over the next 10 years just to keep staffing at current levels [1].

Finally, the Treasury has argued that this $80B investment would (conservatively) lead to an additional $700B in tax revenue over the next decade, so this spending ends up being entirely revenue-positive [2].

[1] https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/written-testimony-of-charles-p-...

[2] https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/The-American-Fami...

Edit: since this is Hacker News, I thought it worth pointing out that most of the IRS' software is written in COBOL. I can't think of many things more inefficient and cost-ineffective than continually making bit-part upgrades to 60-year-old software written in a language almost no one knows anymore because of a lack of predictable (human and financial) resources needed to rewrite it.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#87

Post by a_gnostic »

loceng wrote: post #57
k2enemy wrote: post #3

> A spokeswoman for Intuit, Tania Mercado, criticized the direct file project as a “half-baked solution” and a waste of taxpayer money. “The direct file scheme is a solution in search of a problem,” she said. Wow, I thought that Intuit would have gone for a little more subtlety.

Industrial complexes, all of the obvious ones, have gone too far; it only takes one to push for unfair-unreasonable terms. The next step of citizen's countering Intuit's particular complex is for automatic tax filing to occur.

The W2 doesn't count as voluntary, unless you bear witness against yourself, by filing for a return and identifying yourself as a taxpayer –waiving your 5A rights.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#88

Post by actuallyalys »

akira2501 wrote: post #81
hackernewds wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Precisely. They'll spend $80b to hire "agents." They won't spend a time to make the system actually easy to use. They're not underfunded, they're just incompetent.

There's certainly room to debate how the IRS is spending its money, but they've spent some of it on responding to taxpayer questions, resulting in a decrease in wait times and other improvements: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1421. These are their own metrics, so it's possible they're being gamed in some way, but it's not true no money is going toward helping taxpayers.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#89

Post by CrendKing »

usaar333 wrote: post #66
MenhirMike wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is really the main issue. Offering a more accessible free version to file taxes is great, but the real problem is the need to file taxes at all for a lot of people. The IRS already knows the relevant info: Your employer sends W-2 information, your bank and broker are sending the various 1099 forms for interest, dividends, stock sale gains/losses, etc. Same for your spouse and kids/dependents. Don't even need to…

> Unless you're dealing with foreign income, are a business, or do a lot of contract work for cash, I don't see much reason why the IRS can't just handle all the taxes automatically - apart from the fact that some company wants to charge me $150 a year to file my taxes and making sure that my tax situation (which would fit on a beer coaster otherwise) is as complicated as possible. I imagine there are heavy software…

I have no idea what "wash sale" is. I only heard that term when I was reading the help page in TurboTax, which I'm effectively forced to use.

Seriously, I doubt there is more than 100k people in US that have this "wash sale" any year. I'm so tired of every time someone suggests automatic tax filling, there is always one guy bring up some tax term that 99.99% people never heard of. Sure, if auto tax filling doesn't solve your wash sale calculation, feel free to go back to TurboTax. Let the other 99% people who have one job and no other complicated tax situation skip this yearly nonsense.

Re: IRS to begin trial of its own free tax-filing system

#90

Post by avrionov »

usaar333 wrote: post #66
MenhirMike wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is really the main issue. Offering a more accessible free version to file taxes is great, but the real problem is the need to file taxes at all for a lot of people. The IRS already knows the relevant info: Your employer sends W-2 information, your bank and broker are sending the various 1099 forms for interest, dividends, stock sale gains/losses, etc. Same for your spouse and kids/dependents. Don't even need to…

> Unless you're dealing with foreign income, are a business, or do a lot of contract work for cash, I don't see much reason why the IRS can't just handle all the taxes automatically - apart from the fact that some company wants to charge me $150 a year to file my taxes and making sure that my tax situation (which would fit on a beer coaster otherwise) is as complicated as possible. I imagine there are heavy software…

IRS already audits at least 10% of the returns. They should have the entire tax system implemented as a software. It is madness that this part was hidden from the wide audience.

As many software projects, the internal system may not be appropriate for external use, but still they should have components very long time ago.

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