Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life • Hacker News Board

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#21

Post by zvmaz » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:37 PM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #19

tinco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's deriding the agile movement. He's saying if you don't know how to properly design software (up front), then he supposes that doing it in an iterative fashion is an acceptable alternative. The way he says it implies that he disapproves of it. In opinions such as this it pays to remind yourself that not everyone is faced with the same challenges. For all the esteem Wirth garners, I feel (at least at that time) his…

And not everyone has the same abilities. Tayloresquece methodologies like Agile are great for getting mediocre results for mediocre projects using mediocre developers (if they are not mediocre to begin with, certainly they will become so) in a repeatable and reportable fashion.

> Tayloresquece methodologies like Agile are great for getting mediocre results for mediocre projects using mediocre developers (if they are not mediocre to begin with, certainly they will become so) in a repeatable and reportable fashion

Nuanced, humble, and thoughtful opinion. Thank you.

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#22

Post by jhbadger » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 1:52 PM UTC

begueradj wrote: post #10

> “I suppose that’s all very well if you don’t know how to design software.” Could anyone who may have more information elaborate on what Wirth meant by saying this ? Thank you.

It reminds me of the famous exchange (which may have been apocryphal) between Dustin Hoffman and Sir Laurence Olivier. Hoffman was describing the "method" in which he got into the mind of the character he was going to portray by living as much as possible as the character did, wearing the same type of clothing, and trying to think like the character. Olivier, being a more traditional actor was said to have said "My boy, have you tried acting?"

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#23

Post by arkj » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 2:03 PM UTC

What makes professor Wirth a unique geek?

To be a geek of geeks in computer science you have to write an OS or a Compiler and professor Wirth did both. To top it up he wrote the hardware to run it all. Now that’s when you call someone a king of geeks.

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#24

Post by rramadass » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 2:43 PM UTC

begueradj wrote: post #10

> “I suppose that’s all very well if you don’t know how to design software.” Could anyone who may have more information elaborate on what Wirth meant by saying this ? Thank you.

"Extreme Programming (XP)" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_programming) was the precursor to and origin of current Agile/Scrum and similar methodologies whose main tenet is that "Upfront Design is unnecessary" and "Design & Program as you go".

Niklaus Wirth (along with Edsger Djikstra and other greats) had established the field of "Structured Design & Programming", "Top-Down Design", "Program Development by Stepwise Refinement" and similar techniques which laid the foundations of modern software development all of which had an emphasis on "Upfront Design"; You always Think before you Code.

I am totally with Wirth (and the other greats); XP/Agile/Scrum are all lazy excuses used by people "who don't know how to design software".

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#25

Post by rramadass » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 2:46 PM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #19

tinco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's deriding the agile movement. He's saying if you don't know how to properly design software (up front), then he supposes that doing it in an iterative fashion is an acceptable alternative. The way he says it implies that he disapproves of it. In opinions such as this it pays to remind yourself that not everyone is faced with the same challenges. For all the esteem Wirth garners, I feel (at least at that time) his…

And not everyone has the same abilities. Tayloresquece methodologies like Agile are great for getting mediocre results for mediocre projects using mediocre developers (if they are not mediocre to begin with, certainly they will become so) in a repeatable and reportable fashion.

Ha, Ha! I absolutely love your phrasing!

For those who may not know, "Tayloresque" refers to techniques pioneered by Frederick Winslow Taylor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Winslow_Taylor) who introduced "Scientific Management Techniques" to increase worker productivity and efficiency in Factories. To the detriment of Humankind, his methods have been taken as gospel by the larger "Management Industry" from where they have bled into the "Knowledge Management Industry" causing all knowledgeable Software Engineers to rue their jobs/careers/lives.

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#26

Post by Paul-Craft » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 3:59 PM UTC

Wow.

I had no literal idea Niklaus Wirth was alive until just now when I learned he died. We've lost a giant of the field already in 2024. This is definitely black bar worthy.

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#27

Post by pts_ » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 4:34 PM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #19

tinco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's deriding the agile movement. He's saying if you don't know how to properly design software (up front), then he supposes that doing it in an iterative fashion is an acceptable alternative. The way he says it implies that he disapproves of it. In opinions such as this it pays to remind yourself that not everyone is faced with the same challenges. For all the esteem Wirth garners, I feel (at least at that time) his…

And not everyone has the same abilities. Tayloresquece methodologies like Agile are great for getting mediocre results for mediocre projects using mediocre developers (if they are not mediocre to begin with, certainly they will become so) in a repeatable and reportable fashion.

There's nothing mediocre about delivering features and bugfixes at the speed of light on whose correctness your reputation is based.

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#28

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #19

tinco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's deriding the agile movement. He's saying if you don't know how to properly design software (up front), then he supposes that doing it in an iterative fashion is an acceptable alternative. The way he says it implies that he disapproves of it. In opinions such as this it pays to remind yourself that not everyone is faced with the same challenges. For all the esteem Wirth garners, I feel (at least at that time) his…

And not everyone has the same abilities. Tayloresquece methodologies like Agile are great for getting mediocre results for mediocre projects using mediocre developers (if they are not mediocre to begin with, certainly they will become so) in a repeatable and reportable fashion.

[deleted]

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#29

Post by mjb » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 5:43 PM UTC

tinco wrote: post #13

begueradj wrote: post #10

> “I suppose that’s all very well if you don’t know how to design software.” Could anyone who may have more information elaborate on what Wirth meant by saying this ? Thank you.

He's deriding the agile movement. He's saying if you don't know how to properly design software (up front), then he supposes that doing it in an iterative fashion is an acceptable alternative. The way he says it implies that he disapproves of it. In opinions such as this it pays to remind yourself that not everyone is faced with the same challenges. For all the esteem Wirth garners, I feel (at least at that time) his…

And that Worth worked primarily on systems that are many times smaller (maybe many orders of magnitude smaller) than today's biggest systems. It's no surprise, then, that the successful techniques are different. The right techniques to build a house, a skyscraper, a city, and a garden are different.

Re: Niklaus Wirth, 1934-2024: Geek For Life

#30

Post by CoastalCoder » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 6:16 PM UTC

devnonymous wrote: post #9

CoastalCoder wrote: post #7

It's so weird to me that he was already 7 when Pearl Harbor was bombed .

What do you mean? Why is it weird? Did you mean to imply that you're surprised that he was old or that Pearl Harbor happened around an average lifetime ago ?

I meant that WW2 seems so long ago to me, especially considering all the social and technological changes that have happened since then.

It's interesting to me that a person can see so much change over his lifetime.