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Age verification is incompatible with the internet

jonaharagon.com

111–120 of 161 posts

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#111
post #94

Yeah but unfortunately it is very compatible with social conservatives and certain extreme christians who want to make it as hard as possible for adults to access porn as well, ideally banning it. Thats not possible to do, so they go and attack it with fake outrage (and it are all fake, children are not actually interested in sex nor do they spontainously combust if they see naked adults). Same with exedus cry, which…

The article does get into this, and I think the truth is between the article and your analysis:

I personally think that the libertarian argument is good: the government should focus on things other than this.

Which means devices could enact opt-in controls. Periodically scanning screenshots for nudity? That’s a feature… for an app. You’ve got all the right filtering apps? You’re a compliant semi-trustworthy teenager/Christian/Muslim/Exodus Cry member/citizen of the state religion. Parental controls keep the apps activated. A computer with 1995 Netscape continues to work with arbitrary Internet content. git and Docker don’t pause for AV when a comment contains the string “XXX”.

What you’re talking about are the movements behind the blockers. We can imagine an app which targets “sin” rather than nudity. Detecting corrosive text stories, especially homoeroticism. That this is merely very approximate detecting false positives is a feature, not a bug. One can’t be too careful with the intentions of outsiders. That the app itself collects more PII than the zero-knowledge proofs explained here is not interesting to its market; they already give superlative trust to those app makers. Perfectly acceptable to be carefree with the intentions of insiders.

Parents get a device that sanitizes as much as they want. Religious communities get to bless smartphones as finally advancing their fight against sin. The opt-in apps stay out of the way of well-adjusted busy people.

I’m ok with that scenario but I predict it requires a committed user base, patience with false detections, sustained funding, noticeable battery impact, and empowers some speciality app makers to be morality custodians. I’m less ok with one government getting all that right across a global communications network, even for the worst content.

But lawmakers who want control don’t like those apps. They want (1) the effects to be broadly distributed, (2) that the gatekeepers be hyperactive invite-only groups on social media, (3) that those volunteer ratings boards promote certain tastes over others. Song of Solomon must never be blocked. A reference to a torrent that contains a gay furry story? AV the entire domain, read the story into the Congressional Record, AV the Congressional Record.

Obviously hyperbole, but my point is that these are the contours of what a minority want with power. This comment section is full of people who want one government to make parenting choices for all, but as quoted in the article about the lawmaker from Utah, the censors are shockingly bad at predicting the future. We have to scrutinize their implementations when all proposed solutions depend on a powerful government intervening past the HTTP header level whenever someone finds inadequate supervision within any particular open forum.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#113
post #17

This should not be that hard. How about: - At point of purchase for a consumer device that can view Internet content, the salesperson (or web store) is required to ask if the device is for an underage child, in which case either the device is placed in "child safe" mode, or printed instructions are directly provided giving instructions to do such. The child protection settings should be linked to the parent's e-mail…

This means disabling any means of downloading custom software for the under 18, right? Forget coding if you are under 18, because all of that would be so simple to bypass unless you completely lock it all. Games and everything need to be vetted when you are 17? Since if you allow them any kid could also download a custom browser as well to get past that, and if there is a way, this info will be shared amongst kids.

Not if the parent controls a screenshot analyzer trained to detect objectionable figures, patterns, and phrases. This would work above the browser and IDE.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#114

It is possible to cryptographically attest to attributes like age without revealing identity. I worked on a privacy preserving system that did this among other things. Third parties who received an attestation of some property could verify it. To be fully private, a bit more is required. Crucially, each time an attestation is provided it is made unlinkable to previous times it may have been provided. So the third par…

It would be possible. But age verification and privacy are not the objective of either side. Age verification as a pretext to place a barrier and stick it to these businesses. Privacy as a principle - not a technical attribute.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What am I missing? You are missing, that many people in that space don't want to solve that specific problem * Some companies and their lobbies want to sell their products for filtering or whatever * Some people want to get rid of all sinful porn * Some want to block a lot more content for more people and need infrastructure * Some want to have further control Etc. "protecting the children" is often a good way to d…

> Some companies and their lobbies want to sell their products for filtering or whatever It really shouldn't be needed: web pages are all about tags with data and metadata. It shouldn't be hard to add metadata about content type. I never quite understood why labeling initiatives never gained traction: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_for_Internet_Content_... * https://www.w3.org/PICS/ * https://www.w3.org/200…

In theory that is right, but if non-technical lawmakers are being told by vendors how complex and expensive products ease that and allow monitoring it's convincing for many.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#116
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are users supposed to know where they can and can't safely upload a sensitive picture of their ID?

You’re thinking about AV as it’s been rolled out in the past few years in places. But the mDL / mobile passports don’t require that - it’s a signed record that a certain government agency signs. It can be something like signing what kind of vehicles you can operate but also can be just an anonymous age verification check. The standards body for this was explicitly thinking about privacy-preserving mechanisms to do AV…

In practice, how do these system expect the kids (much more technically savvy than their parents, and with a motive) not to get their hands on their parents'? (As you know, kids often get access to credit cards without parents knowledge.)

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#117
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point wasn't that this should be done, just that it's a more viable option if moral busybody legislators actually want to legally restrict children's access to adult content instead of finding creative ways of harassing Pornhub. Obviously porn blocking should just be something parents should concern themselves with, and parents alone. Software and device vendors already provide all the necessary tools.

I think it isn’t a very viable option. I understand the logic of saying to them “here’s a more effective solution, which you would have suggested if you were operating in good faith,” but I think that your solution wouldn’t work, which causes the whole argument to unravel.

I think you agree with each other. How about: smartphones arrive with a parent lock(*) using a manufacturer code. Flashing an ID or interacting with a (possibly standards-compliant) body reveals the unlock code.

(*) Yes, jailbreaking gets around that, but now you’ve circumvented a content-control system, which is a bigger legal problem under DMCA than any legal Internet content.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#118

This is another article that tries to turn what is a subjective political grievance into a technical discussion. Age verification by id in fairly privacy preserving ways is technically trivial. I've lived in South Korea where this is standard and digital identification is used for everything. My German national id has an eid feature that you can use, for example when buying booze online to verify your age. There's a…

How do the german users expect that "dedicated public company" not to pass on the data? "As provided by law, I'm sure /s"

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#119
post #109

The issue I have with age verification and End user agreements is the following. There is no legal binding to who signed the Eula in normal end user accept. This differs from a paper contract where the signature is person identifiable. Your cats paw could have clicked on the Eula accept :). Who is liable then the cat? I think that if Eulas was taken to highest court of law they may not hold through screening.

just figure out how to make a EULA a chain in abortion and that'll get it to the US supreme Court

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it isn’t a very viable option. I understand the logic of saying to them “here’s a more effective solution, which you would have suggested if you were operating in good faith,” but I think that your solution wouldn’t work, which causes the whole argument to unravel.

I think you agree with each other. How about: smartphones arrive with a parent lock(*) using a manufacturer code. Flashing an ID or interacting with a (possibly standards-compliant) body reveals the unlock code. (*) Yes, jailbreaking gets around that, but now you’ve circumvented a content-control system, which is a bigger legal problem under DMCA than any legal Internet content.

That sounds like a fine system for a private company to sell to their customers. There shouldn’t be a law about this, though.
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