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Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

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Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#61

Math people seem to have this more than other engineering/science etc ; math, and this is actual bloody Godel, seems so perfect and beautiful that is has to have a creator. Everything else is incredibly sloppy (including most software).

Yeah there is a nice crossover also in religion, where some sects have agreed that theories like the Big Bang are not incompatible with a creator. But my initial take on Godel’s belief here is that even if he is correct, and the order of the universe demands that there is more to existence than this, why do Humans get the afterlife? Parameciums don’t have the inherent consciousness or great individual potential, so t…

> ...theories like the Big Bang are not incompatible with a creator.

First there was energy-mass, in one place. The laws of thermodynamics do not allow such an energy-mass.

The energy-mass is at equilibrium. Then the energy-mass is not at equilibrium, and it explodes outward, creating the mass-mass and energy-energy that we know.

Now there are laws, such as the laws of thermodynamics, that will not allow such an energy-mass to exist.

Where did the laws come from? An external source certainly. We know this because the energy-mass was at rest, not exploding; no laws.

Now there are laws suddenly. Laws don't make themselves. It takes external force to create a law. What was that external law-creating force?

I believe it was God with a big G. I have no proof except the very laws of the universe that were put into motion when the energy-mass exploded.

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#62

Math people seem to have this more than other engineering/science etc ; math, and this is actual bloody Godel, seems so perfect and beautiful that is has to have a creator. Everything else is incredibly sloppy (including most software).

I don't know. If just following logical consequences of elementary school arithmetic leads you to discover that numbers have to be two dimensional to work ( in requiring 'i' for square roots of negatives to function, and from there 'i' being found peppered throughout the rest of our exploration of the consequences of numbers ), it might be that all things fail to be as simple as we would like.

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#63
post #51

> His rationale for belief in an afterlife is this: > If the world is rationally organised and has meaning, then it must be the case. For what sort of a meaning would it have to bring about a being (the human being) with such a wide field of possibilities for personal development and relationships to others, only then to let him achieve not even 1/1,000th of it? Far from my petty mind to challenge a great thinker lik…

>First of all, the world being rational is a property humans ascribe to it. On an atomic level matter follows specific rules, yes, and we extrapolate a certain order from this on a higher level. But I don't see how any of it can be defined as rational, or having any sort of deeper meaning. You might not be read in philosophy, but surely you understand the word "if"

Right, the parent attacks the axioms as-if they where the argument while simultaneously attacking the source as egotistical.

The axioms are of course suspect, but if you give reasonable interpretations to them then the conclusion is not far fetched as they basically necessitate some kind of creator.

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ll get an answer with all of the linguistic flavor of Gödel’s texts and absolutely none of his insights or reasoning. LLM is a language model, not Deep Thought from the hitchhikers guide.

It works on embeddings, which are concepts. So it would at least be manipulating a similarly weighted network of concepts, though much shallower. It would be an answer from his literal domain of discourse. It would be evocative rather than authoritative.

What you describe would be literally worse than nothing. The use of those concepts would make about as much sense as the use of topological concepts in a Lacanian text. A typewriting monkey in a trenchcoat.

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#65
post #51

> His rationale for belief in an afterlife is this: > If the world is rationally organised and has meaning, then it must be the case. For what sort of a meaning would it have to bring about a being (the human being) with such a wide field of possibilities for personal development and relationships to others, only then to let him achieve not even 1/1,000th of it? Far from my petty mind to challenge a great thinker lik…

I think, particularly with the advent of AI and modern computer technology as a whole, Gödel would today be a simulationist of Bostrom’s cut.

If we ever have the means to accurately simulate reality - which we already do, at small scales and with significant time dilation - then it becomes almost inevitable that we reside within a simulation, as the simulations would vastly outnumber physical reality, and therefore the balance of probability is that we reside within a simulation - possibly nested within many other layers of simulation.

It isn’t necessary to simulate an entire universe at utter fidelity - just that which is observed - which rather neatly ties into the current understanding of quantum mechanics, and waveform collapse. It also isn’t necessary to do it in realtime, as from within the simulation all would appear synchronous regardless - aeons could pass between states, while the substrate orbits a white dwarf whiling away the cold eternity at the heat death of the parent universe.

Whether that implies an afterlife is another matter - perhaps we are ephemeral after all - but taking Gödel’s argument about the wastefulness of imbuing consciousness only to then snuff it out, half baked, it would stand to reason that any simulator would seek to accrue that experience, and use it for other purposes.

Perhaps there is only one consciousness, asynchronously living every life, every existence. I find this useful to bear in mind, as the person to whom I am asshole today may be an aspect of me from another iteration.

I prefer to look at this not as woo-woo, or belief, but rather logical deduction based on sound premises.

Of course, it may all be bunkum, and we may be alone in the universe, and life may indeed be meaningless and fleeting - but we cannot know, as that would foul up the simulation no end.

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#66
post #2

Hopefully as an FYI that is free of too much skeptical criticism (I mean... I actually get it, but I just don't want to deal with negativity right now), there's actually a rapidly growing number of NDE accounts on YouTube right now. I am putting together a playlist of the most compelling ones: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvnDbwjRqIOkgR1eUMfpn... Some of these are from well-educated people like doctors, for…

I would strongly assume that a big chunk is made using generative AI with the purpose of spreading one particular religion, or just making the population more spiritual and therefore less opposed to certain changes. With all due respect, we don't know everything, but know enough about our brain to be fairly certain that there is nothing even close to any afterlife, with all respect to people's own beliefs that they are entitled to. It is wishful thinking, it makes humans feel good, gives them hope and is a pretty significant psychological relief, especially given the current mental health situation on earth, but what happens after life is fairly certain - nothing. I suspect the letters were written with the exact goal I have listed above - to give hope, to make happy and to give psychological relief. After all, you want people you interact with to be happy. If you will tell them the truth in cold blood, well, that won't be a very pleasant moment and it will lead to sadness. I do the same to be honest. Small lies that make people that I care about happy. It makes me happy in return. Is it bad? What even is bad? Everyone defines bad for themselves. Making other people happy is definitely not bad in a system of values where bad is on the opposite side of happy. But what do I know.

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#67

Funny this came up. Just today I was reading about a letter Gödel wrote to von Neumann in 1956 asking him about an idea relating to the precursors of P vs NP and Hutter search ( https://ecommons.cornell.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/46ae... ). Gödel was quite ahead of his time. Even though he tended to prefer theory over practical applications, it would be really interesting to have his thoughts on prediction and in…

Reflecting deeply on Gödel's Completeness and Incompleteness Theorems, I'd like to contribute to the discussion. The essence of Completeness lies in the notion that a system, constructed on foundational axioms (such as facts, truths, or mathematical operations), encompasses all possible facts derivable within its framework. Interestingly, this completeness paradoxically begets contradictions. It implies the existence of 'axiomatic islands' - distinct realms of truth where a fact valid in one may contradict another in a different realm. Hence, Completeness inherently entails contradiction.

On the other hand, Incompleteness, which targets a specific subset of all possible truths or derivations, can achieve absolute consistency by avoiding these contradictions. This is because it deliberately excludes certain 'axiomatic regions,' maintaining coherence within its defined scope but at the expense of being incomplete.

Gödel's genius lay in unveiling the deceptive nature of mathematics when navigating these axiomatic territories. His theorems present a profound duality: the local context, where truths are confined to specific axiomatic systems, and the universal context, which can be akin to an 'ultimate truth' in spiritual terms. This ultimate truth transcends individual systems, offering a broader, more holistic understanding.

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#68
> And because the correspondence was private, he did not feel the need to hide his true views, which he might have done in more formal academic settings and among his colleagues at the IAS

I don't think that being private necessarily means that it is showing his true views. In private, we often feel more relaxed and express ourselves differently than in public. But in private conversations, you can express a point of view in one conversation and a different one in another. We often tend to accommodate our audience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_accommodation_th...

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does your second paragraph even mean? I don't mean to come across as disrespectful btw. I just honestly don't understand what you're trying to convey.

It means there's a meditation that is supposed to provide direct spiritual realisation. As this involved a transformation of consciousness, it was known as alchemy - change. However, historically the instructions were kept secret and shared using coded language. All that philosophers stone business, changing lead into gold etc. But they were just symbols which basically refer to sexual energy and consciousness. Here'…

>A simple look on reddit should convince you this is a very real phenomenon [1]

Interesting, for sure, but some reddit wiki is not convincing in any shape or form.

Re: Kurt Gödel, his mother and the argument for life after death

#70
post #51

> His rationale for belief in an afterlife is this: > If the world is rationally organised and has meaning, then it must be the case. For what sort of a meaning would it have to bring about a being (the human being) with such a wide field of possibilities for personal development and relationships to others, only then to let him achieve not even 1/1,000th of it? Far from my petty mind to challenge a great thinker lik…

Rationality is not an inscribed property but rather a natural consequence of observing the order in place.

For example, the table of elements expresses the properties of integers as inherent to reality. As such, it is rational and rationally-ordered.

This is not so much “philosophy” as it is “logic”, it is the conclusion of philosophy and mathematics and the subsequent origin of the computational reality.

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