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Minimum Wage Clock

moonbase.lgbt

111–120 of 278 posts

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#111
post #66

The most remarkable thing to me about this to me isn't necessarily the disparity between CEO and min wage (I already knew it was crazy). Instead, it's the differences between CEO compensation. Sundar is making $300 to Satya's $65? what? I know it's an estimate and the numbers are made up at that level but still!

I wonder a lot about what motivates people at that level, and about how these negotiations go. As someone who has always been a W-2 employee, and who has never had much individual negotiating power, it feels impossible to wrap my head around this.

On one hand, if I could get compensation in the hundreds of millions per year, it's tempting to think that I'd "work" for six months and then retire with wealth beyond my wildest dreams. On the other hand, nobody appears to do that. So maybe it's lifestyle inflation, or maybe it's just intoxicating to have that kind of power and status and everything that comes with it besides the money. The existence of government executives and military flag officers, who aren't even paid that much money and could retire whenever they want with generous pensions, seems to indicate that money isn't the primary motivation.

In terms of negotiations, it's hard to imagine that the boards of Alphabet or Microsoft couldn't find someone equally qualified to take the CEO job for less than these amounts.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#112

If we find this appalling, let's stop consuming the products of those who we feel are "overpaid" and visit the website, businessplace, or other endeavors of those we feel are "underpaid". Tim Cook gets paid a lot (and so do many AAPL employees), but I can't help but admit that my last 3 laptops I bought with my own cash were MBP, and not a system76 or framework. And I'm more likely to visit costco than a farmer's mar…

"please move inefficiencies to things that are much more opaque and probably way more inefficient. Thanks"

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#113
post #20

The minimum wage should be scrapped. It either a) prevents people who are happy to work for less obtain a job which is uneconomical at the minimum wage, or b) it creates an effect similar to communism, where everyone doing a job at or below a certain value gets paid the same, no matter what the value of their work is. This leads to the higher quality workers reducing their output, as they are only getting the paid th…

> a) prevents people who are happy to work for less obtain a job which is uneconomical at the minimum wage, or Can you convince me this argument isn't also in support of slavery? (through fear) Or was that actually the point and you mean to advocate for slavery? Your arguments for b are equally malignant. If you will pay someone the minimum mage, for a minimum amount of work, and everyone else who could perform a hig…

Nations lacking a minimum wage like Singapore and Norway aren't exactly rife with slavery.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, Costco treats its employees much better than most any locally owned shop.

That's probably true. The benefits of local business are 1) that dollars spent there generate more wealth for the local economy, as they're not extracted to offshore bank accounts; and 2) that there can be more accountability to and involvement with the community served. However, just because someone hasn't expanded their business to the state/national/international levels doesn't make them a good person, a good mana…

>that dollars spent there generate more wealth for the local economy, as they're not extracted to offshore bank accounts

This is only one side of the equation. Globalization also means the local economy is also "extracting" wealth from other economies.

>2) that there can be more accountability to and involvement with the community served.

Yeah, like car dealerships using their "accountability to and involvement" to forcibly insert themselves in the value chain?

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#115
post #24
post #20

The minimum wage should be scrapped. It either a) prevents people who are happy to work for less obtain a job which is uneconomical at the minimum wage, or b) it creates an effect similar to communism, where everyone doing a job at or below a certain value gets paid the same, no matter what the value of their work is. This leads to the higher quality workers reducing their output, as they are only getting the paid th…

c) the minimum amount required to live peacefully and with dignity.

> the minimum amount required to live peacefully and with dignity.

The issue is that there is no such uniform amount.

If your spouse makes 85% as much as the two of you need to live with dignity, you don't need to make as much as they do and may prefer not to because the lower-paying job is less difficult or more satisfying. For someone else it could be 95%, or 99%, or 250% and the second job is pure supplemental income, so what's the minimum meant to be here?

The minimum wage doesn't account for costs. A job across the street from you means you don't need a car, don't have to pay for fuel or maintenance or transit tickets and don't have to spend hours in traffic (which you could have spent working and getting paid). For a long commute this difference in value can be more than the entire minimum wage.

It's possible for jobs to provide training, which is attractive for entry-level workers or anyone trying to change occupations or learn new skills, because school otherwise costs money. But if you're spending extra hours "at work" getting trained while the value of the training comes out of your paycheck, there isn't any sensible "minimum wage" for this. You could be receiving $50,000/year worth of training while "getting paid" only $5000/year and you're the one coming out ahead because you don't otherwise qualify for a job that pays $55,000/year. You might still be ahead if you were paying them $5000/year.

So how are you supposed to set a minimum wage if the "minimum amount required to live peacefully and with dignity" is different for everyone, and setting it below that threshold deprives people of valuable alternatives?

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#116
post #61

As a reminder, minimum wage is not what the government sets it at, it's zero ($0). If a company doesn't feel they get enough value out of hiring someone for a position for the government mandated minimum wage, they just won't hire that person. Thomas Sowell makes this point regularly in his books. Here's some related points on minimum wage laws: https://www.aei.org/economics/thomas-sowell-on-the-cruelty-o...

As a reminder, no one who uses the term "minimum wage" (aside from perhaps some academics and those who like to sound superior to others) means what Mr. Sowell means.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#117
Some people think billionaires should be more heavily taxed, which they call a redistribution of wealth. I think that is a bizarre take because the original distribution is conceptually absurd to begin with.

Think about it. You create a thing, a useful thing. We value that at 100K and given your outsized role in bringing it into existence, you have an equity of 40%. In absolute terms, you'd have 40K at this point, which seems perfectly fine.

Next, you (help to) scale this company up to a valuation of $100B. Your stake is now $40B.

The percentage is the problem here. It's a wild concept to be a procentual owner of a thing of an indefinite size which can only typically be scaled up by the labor of thousands of others.

It's a concept we made up. It does not exist in material reality. You did not produce the value from $40K to $40B, yet you're rewarded it anyway.

You did produce some value, quite a lot even, which would justify a (very) high salary. Equity sure is a great way to get rich quickly and I know a lot of you are in the game, but it's a strange concept regardless.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#118
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to make assumptions about your life or your conditions, but in scenario A you describe a reality where there are a meaningful number of people who would be content to sell their labor for less than $7.25 per hour. I do not find this believable, given how little that amount is in today's dollars. At the point that you're okay with working for, say, $5/hour, why work at all? What lifestyle permits that as…

In the case of most US states, I think it's fair to say that the minimum wage is moot. As you say, hardly anyone would consider working for less than that anyway. But why take away their freedom to do so?

No freedoms are being taken away, save for those of businesses that would like to increase their margins by paying their workers less.

These fictional people who would love to work for less than $7.25/hr are free to do gig work that nets them less. They are also free to panhandle on the side of freeway off-ramps, which I imagine many would prefer to the concept of being paid $5/hour to take orders from a person who lacks enough respect for their fellow man to pay them more than that.

The removal of the minimum wage would simply be a gift to employers taken from the pockets of actual workers. Businesses don't just pay the minimum wage out of the kindness of their hearts; to pay that wage is code for "I would pay you less if I could."

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#119

If we find this appalling, let's stop consuming the products of those who we feel are "overpaid" and visit the website, businessplace, or other endeavors of those we feel are "underpaid". Tim Cook gets paid a lot (and so do many AAPL employees), but I can't help but admit that my last 3 laptops I bought with my own cash were MBP, and not a system76 or framework. And I'm more likely to visit costco than a farmer's mar…

Isn't putting this onto the consumer a little bit of a cop out? This enormous global system of powerful corporations and nation states crafted this system because it was in their best interest. Feels sort of tone deaf to say "well, you got what you deserved, you created this sytem by buying this specific computer and cheaper food!" Night/farmer's markets are quite popular here in NZ but we haven't toppled global inqu…

Why not? As a consumer I can choose dinner from either beef from burned amazon rainforest, or a ratatouille made from seasonal local ingredients, or anything in between. I can choose to buy a 2-tonne gas SUV or something smaller.

I can choose to participate in “fast fashion”, or choose to buy some of my clothing second-hand.

I can choose a vacation by flying to Greece, or hiking the local area, or anywhere in between.

I can often choose to wait another year to upgrade my phone/computer/device.

Corporations don’t just do stuff, they respond to our actions.

Voting in booths generally works better to affect change in systems like these with externalities, but voting with action and wallets also works.

I do consider that I have a responsibility to act ethically versus other people, and that includes making choices as a consumer.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#120
Excellent!

Suggestion: Put the CEO salaries on the same row as the minimum wage, to show the contrast without scrolling down.

This is one of the major things that is breaking our society.

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