SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says • Hacker News Board

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#291

Post by shermantanktop » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 3:42 PM UTC

LargeTomato wrote: post #215

shermantanktop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Free speech” is used in many ways. But in the US, my understanding (IANAL) is that I can be fired for saying something, and cannot claim “free speech” as a general blanket protection. Exceptions exist if it is specifically a protected form of speech.

No one is claiming free speech as a defense as far as I'm aware. Free speech is entering the conversation because Elon has made it one of his personal North Stars and this case seems to make him look hypocritical. In the US workers have rights about what they can say and do in the workplace. Labor activism (agitating for a union) is protected. IANAL but reasonable criticism of the company may be protected to some deg…

The comment I was responding to was speculating on a judge making a ruling about a free speech defense.

Agree that Elon looks like a hypocrite, regardless of the legalities involved. My impression is that he is not actually principle-driven in this regard. His motivation seems to be attention and chaos, and an anything-goes forum is conducive to that.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#292

Post by davidguetta » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 3:51 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #288

davidguetta wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you 12 ? In what world do you think publicly ridiculing your boss is gonna do anything good for your career. Oh well you were 'right'. But now you won't ever be promoted because the boss don't want the risk to be ridiculed again at a higher lever. If anything Elon made a favor to these weebs so that they can actually go have a career in another compagny

Only a 12 year old, would start a response with "Are you 12?" while asking a theoretical question which doesn't actual address the situation in the post. And using the word "weeb". Elon wasn't publicly ridiculed. Read the article and grow up.

"It's saying "we all agreed to these rules as we came together as a company. Everyone should follow them.""

Grow up yourself

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#293

Post by John23832 » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 3:56 PM UTC

davidguetta wrote: post #292

John23832 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a 12 year old, would start a response with "Are you 12?" while asking a theoretical question which doesn't actual address the situation in the post. And using the word "weeb". Elon wasn't publicly ridiculed. Read the article and grow up.

"It's saying "we all agreed to these rules as we came together as a company. Everyone should follow them."" Grow up yourself

This is not constructive. Go be a loon somewhere else please.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#294

Post by ak217 » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:02 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #235

TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hardly consider this as “take those disagreements public”. It’s not like they talked to the press. This letter was circulated internally using internal employee communications channels. Ironically, we would never have heard of it if they didn’t fire these employees in retaliation resulting in this lawsuit.

> This letter was circulated internally using internal employee communications channels. if an employee undermined leadership's authority, it is likely that they won't last long. Good leadership means being able to recognize criticism from your employees, but this can't come from grassroots effort within the company - it must come from the top. If the employee disagrees with the direction of the company, and the lead…

> if an employee undermined leadership's authority, it is likely that they won't last long.

It is hilarious that you (and many other people in this thread, it seems) would consider this letter "undermining leadership's authority". If someone's authority is undermined by a letter like this, they are not much of a leader.

I have worked at companies led by other zillionaires you may have heard of, and seen letters circulate and questions asked live in an all-hands meeting that went much farther than this letter. Those employees got good faith answers to their questions, and still work there. Now that's leadership.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#295

Post by gitaarik » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

justrealist wrote: post #290

gitaarik wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah well, we have laws and a legal system right? I don't think our legal system says that you can't criticize the company you're working for, or that a company can fire people for criticizing the company. Criticism is healthy and should be respected. Even if it is "unprofessional", that doesn't give the company the right to just fire someone for that. If you would allow companies to fire their employees for criticis…

Our legal system is, absent other laws, free employment, meaning you can be fired for anything not explicitly protected by law, and "pissing off the CEO" is not one of them.

Aha yeah, true, in the United States employers don't have much rights and can be quite easily fired for any reason. In Europe you usually need to have a valid reason to fire someone. Valid reasons can include refusal to perform work, culpable conduct, excessive sickness absence, reorganization, or company closure.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#296

Post by throwawaymaths » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:41 PM UTC

cdogl wrote: post #153

lokar wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a range of rule by state/history: Closed shop: must be a full union member to have the job Fair share: you don’t have to join, but you must pay the portion of dues that go towards contract negotiations and enforcement Right to work: they can’t make you do anything. In some cases even going as far as saying the employer does not have to deduct dues for members (who have agreed to it) pay

Well put, but: > even going as far as saying the employer does not have to deduct dues for members (who have agreed to it) pay I'm surprised you frame this as an extreme example. Regardless of one's views on unions (they have their place), it seems way off for the employer to deduct those payments. Perhaps it's a convenience, but as a worker that is my money to pay to the union; if the union and the employer orchestr…

Compelling employers to pull the wages for dues is a way to make sure the worker pays no matter what. Don't you see? A blue collar worker can't be trusted not to piss away their wages at the bar and be able to come up with their union dues.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#297

Post by justrealist » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 4:50 PM UTC

gitaarik wrote: post #295

justrealist wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our legal system is, absent other laws, free employment, meaning you can be fired for anything not explicitly protected by law, and "pissing off the CEO" is not one of them.

Aha yeah, true, in the United States employers don't have much rights and can be quite easily fired for any reason. In Europe you usually need to have a valid reason to fire someone. Valid reasons can include refusal to perform work, culpable conduct, excessive sickness absence, reorganization, or company closure.

Yes this is why the US has good software jobs and most good devs move to the US.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#298

Post by throwaway09223 » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 5:17 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #243

throwaway09223 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> discussing your working conditions while at work(and being critical of them) is protected. Discussing working conditions is unrelated to criticizing the CEO. > Going after the people who break the law is political now? They didn't break the law. Wait and see.

Criticizing your boss is not related to talking about your working conditions? How can this possibly be true?

Circulating a letter that levels accusations against the CEO for racism or other political wrongthink is not protected conduct.

Come on, don't be ridiculous. The NLRB is operating a farce with this suit. They're used to companies negotiating and not fighting. Their position here is untenable.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#299

Post by gambiting » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

throwaway09223 wrote: post #298

gambiting wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criticizing your boss is not related to talking about your working conditions? How can this possibly be true?

Circulating a letter that levels accusations against the CEO for racism or other political wrongthink is not protected conduct. Come on, don't be ridiculous. The NLRB is operating a farce with this suit. They're used to companies negotiating and not fighting. Their position here is untenable.

>>Circulating a letter that levels accusations against the CEO for racism or other political wrongthink is not protected conduct.

Maybe - I guess the courts will have to decide. But courts also regularly rule that complaining about you boss isn't a valid reason for dismissal - the only difference here is whether doing it on such a wide scale and in this way is or isn't acceptable.

I wouldn't call it a farce at all - I think neither one of us can predict what the court will rule here.

Re: SpaceX Illegally Fired Workers Critical of Musk, Federal Agency Says

#300

Post by dkjaudyeqooe » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 5:53 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #287

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to pick your battles, and let's face it, a well run and sensibly led SpaceX is a benefit to society (so far).

This seems like an instance of "Something must be done; this is something, therefore it must be done"—more high-quality rocketry and space expertise clearly is a benefit to humanity, at least in the long term, but that doesn't necessarily mean that SpaceX in particular needs to be the organization to do it.

Agreed, but they're pushing things forward. If we waited for Boeing or the like who are fed by fat, lazy government and military contracts things would never improve.

Basically more (good) competition is better.