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Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

businessinsider.com

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Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#91

Post by kbrackbill »

lukas099 wrote: post #78
rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

People focus too much on edge cases when making life decisions, imo. > We need a dining room for when we have parties (has a party once every 2 years; room sits empty 99% of the time) > We need a guest bedroom (guests could stay at the hotel down the street) > I need a pickup truck (driver is an accountant who maybe picks up a couple bags of mulch from Lowes twice a year) I'm glad I live in a prosperous society where…

I think what makes it hard to be realistic about these things is that they're all aspirational. People want to be the kind of people who have parties, have guests often, do big projects that need a truck. Admitting to yourself that you don't need these things is admitting that you're not living up to the ideal in your head.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#92

Post by tw04 »

rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

I’d argue most families have two cars though. So you get one EV and keep the ICE until the charging infrastructure is where it needs to be.

Another alternative is to just rent a car for that long road trip which I’ve done in the past.

That being said, I think far more people worry about daily mileage than you think. People think in terms of time spent driving, not distance. They tend to assume every hour is 60 miles and reality is for most it’s nowhere near that. I’ve had my wife lose her mind that the car is warning about range with 25 miles remaining and she’s 6 miles from home. Humans tend to be REALLY bad about estimating the distance of something but really good about estimating time.

If someone were to ask you how far your office is from the airport, I bet you’d respond with how long it takes to get there, not how many miles it is away.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#93

Post by Swizec »

rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

> 93% of trips are less than 30 miles, but the vast majority of drivers take occasional trips that are beyond the range of an electric car

I live in a dense city and don’t own a car. For most of my regular trips, a bicycle is faster and more convenient than a car.

Any time we do rent a car, it’s for trips longer than 100mi. Weekend trips and such. An EV absolutely does not fit our usecase. We tried renting a Tesla once and it was … not great.

Yes we’re probably and edge case. But there’s lots of people living in dense cities. That’s why they’re dense.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#94

Post by iteria »

lukas099 wrote: post #78
rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

People focus too much on edge cases when making life decisions, imo. > We need a dining room for when we have parties (has a party once every 2 years; room sits empty 99% of the time) > We need a guest bedroom (guests could stay at the hotel down the street) > I need a pickup truck (driver is an accountant who maybe picks up a couple bags of mulch from Lowes twice a year) I'm glad I live in a prosperous society where…

It's about how often the edge case comes up. 4 to 12 times a year, I need to drive 300 miles to visit my family. 10 to 30 times a year, I'll drive 50 to 60 miles to visit friends/family or see specialist doctors or take trip to some interesting event. But on the vast majority of days I drive less than 10 miles a day.

My edge cases come up fairly frequently and I don't really have a good fall back for them i could spend a huge amount of money or time to do the 50 mile trips via uber or transit. Or, I could own a hybrid. I could do something similar with less reliability for the 300 mile trip. Or I could own a hybrid. In both cases, i could keep an app that tells me where the charge stations are and account for any possible needed charging... or I could just own a hybrid and gas up at any random station I pass in 5 mins.

This is the problem of EVs. Yeah edge cases, but a lot of people can have their edge cases come up fairly frequently. And worse this changes over time. People like to plan for probably outcomes over the life of the vehicle. It's not strange to think you might a few hours a handful of times a year. The more people you need to transport with you the more alternative travel methods and the uncertainty of the charge network starts to matter.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#95

Post by toast0 »

throwitaway222 wrote: post #65
rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

This. I'm not sure why plugin hybrids are not a thing.... actually, I don't even want a plugin "hybrid" I want an EV that never uses the ICE unless you run out of power, then it's just an ICE vehicle entirely... In other words I want something they will never build.

Plugin hybrids are a thing. They're designed as a system though, so a vehicle that works as you describe would need to have more power in both systems in order to run from either one independently. And that means more weight and worse efficiency.

EV and ICE have great synergy if you use them together. EV offers amazing acceleration from zero, and relatively less amazing acceleration at highway speed. ICE has better acceleration when you're already moving. ICE efficiency is poor at low speeds, and better at high speeds, and EV is opposite. ICE can warm up the interior of the vehicle at no extra charge. If the engine is idling to warm up (itself or the occupants), might as well charge the batteries. If the battery has enough charge, it can easily start the engine when needed, so you don't need to idle unless warming is needed... And EV is always ready so you don't have the delay to go that some auto start/stop systems have.

Anyway, at least in my PHEV, it had a 'EV only' mode you can use if you charge it, that operates close to what you suggest. It does run the engine a bit here and there for 'normal operations' and will try to cycle through the gas tank over several months to make sure the gas doesn't go stale. But if it's in EV only mode, acceleration from say 40 mph to 65 mph is poor, and the battery drains quick at 65 mph vs 30 mph ish or stop and go. Significant uphill eats the battery too.

The one I drive is also very much a compromise vehicle, the extra battery for PHEV doesn't have a good place to go, so the trunk space is poor. There's probably ways to design a car to be PHEV first and find better places for the battery, but most/all? PHEVs I've seen are designed hybrid or ICE only first and then stuff extra batteries in storage areas.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#96

Post by ellisv »

lukas099 wrote: post #78
rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

People focus too much on edge cases when making life decisions, imo. > We need a dining room for when we have parties (has a party once every 2 years; room sits empty 99% of the time) > We need a guest bedroom (guests could stay at the hotel down the street) > I need a pickup truck (driver is an accountant who maybe picks up a couple bags of mulch from Lowes twice a year) I'm glad I live in a prosperous society where…

I agree. Although part of the challenge is that people are accustomed to jumping in their car for a roadtrip without thinking twice about their vehicle’s range. Once you’ve upgraded your lifestyle for the convenience of “not thinking about it”, well it’s hard to go back.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#97

Post by derwiki »

more_corn wrote: post #43

One big problem is that the ceo man-child has made Tesla toxic. This has cost the brand and the market a significant amount of credibility. Their abysmal build quality and parts monopoly don’t help matters either. Now he picked a fight with the labor unions of Scandinavia. I wouldn’t be surprised if he tanks the whole industry.

I don’t as many people follow Musk as closely as you think. Everyone in my circle is buying Tesla if they are buying EV. It’s the “obvious” choice because you see them everywhere; if you want an EV but don’t want to think too hard about it you get Tesla.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#98

Post by zdragnar »

iknowstuff wrote: post #68
rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

The bigger strawman is that range is the biggest consideration. ~300 miles is plenty when charging takes 15min. Especially given that most charging happens at home, saving time vs going to a gas station every week.

It's great when you have a charger capable of charging in 15 minutes.

Right now, that isn't reality for a lot of people. Chargers either aren't maintained properly, or wait times to get to a charger are horrendous.

> Especially given that most charging happens at home, saving time vs going to a gas station every week.

That's ignoring the parent post's point. The usual commute isn't what's causing range anxiety.

Some day, I'll own an EV myself, but it isn't likely to be soon.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#99

Post by FalconSensei »

tw04 wrote: post #92
rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

I’d argue most families have two cars though. So you get one EV and keep the ICE until the charging infrastructure is where it needs to be. Another alternative is to just rent a car for that long road trip which I’ve done in the past. That being said, I think far more people worry about daily mileage than you think. People think in terms of time spent driving, not distance. They tend to assume every hour is 60 miles…

> If someone were to ask you how far your office is from the airport, I bet you’d respond with how long it takes to get there, not how many miles it is away.

To be fair, in this case, time makes way more sense. I need to know when to leave to get there in time for my flight, and I don't care about the actual distance.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#100

Post by ellisv »

iteria wrote: post #94
lukas099 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People focus too much on edge cases when making life decisions, imo. > We need a dining room for when we have parties (has a party once every 2 years; room sits empty 99% of the time) > We need a guest bedroom (guests could stay at the hotel down the street) > I need a pickup truck (driver is an accountant who maybe picks up a couple bags of mulch from Lowes twice a year) I'm glad I live in a prosperous society where…

It's about how often the edge case comes up. 4 to 12 times a year, I need to drive 300 miles to visit my family. 10 to 30 times a year, I'll drive 50 to 60 miles to visit friends/family or see specialist doctors or take trip to some interesting event. But on the vast majority of days I drive less than 10 miles a day. My edge cases come up fairly frequently and I don't really have a good fall back for them i could spe…

I fly a couple times a year but don’t own a plane. (Of course, that would be impractical)

I think the issue is largely around having to adjust the mindset to plan in advance.

For the roadtrip scenario, it might be better to just rent a vehicle for a week. For transporting large or heavy items, renting a truck beats owning one.

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