Juan Brown has released his video on this
JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
451–460 of 515 posts
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#452The big take0away here is that the 90 second rule that Airbus fought and lost with the A380 and Boeing thought about fighting with the 787 and 777 is exactly right. Sometimes every second matters. A second take-away - emergencies are no excuse to ditch procedure and thinking about Safety. The SFO incident where a passenger was killed after exiting a vehicle by a vehicle rushing to the plane is another example.
did airbus try to fight against the 90 second rule? What changes did they make to eventually do a successful evacuation with an 800 person cabin configuration?
Airbus tried to get the FAA to relax the requirement that every possible seat offered for sale be able to leave in 90 seconds - ie, just 600 instead of the fully rated 800. Then they asked to relax it to 120 seconds. Finally, they told the FAA that their models should be sufficient. The FAA (and eventually the European equivalent agencies) said no to these asks and made them do the full test with 800 people leaving the plane in 90 seconds. They did so in ~85 seconds, IIRC.
Their last concern is that far more people get injured in tests than in reality, which was a fair point - but there were questions about the particular configuration that Airbus proposed.
Also, Airbus never sold the A380 to any major US carrier, and no carrier was ever able to fill that many seats on the A380 sustainably. So maybe Airbus was right, but for the same reasons that eventually doomed the project.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#453Definitely better links than Daily Mirror out there, avherald.com unfortunately overwhelmed, but in terms of discussion: - Crazy how well the carbon fiber A350 held up given that it seems to have landed pretty much directly on a Dash 8 (RIP Coast Guard team). Looks like trading long term flammability for initial rigidity lived up to the design intent. - Excellent evacuation job, especially as it looks like on some vi…
> Excellent evacuation job While there many silly reasons to force people to shutdown electronics and such on planes, I think forcing people to not have any distractions during take-offs and landings is a good thing. Over 50% of incidents (fatal and hull loss/non-fatal) occurring during landing: * https://accidentstats.airbus.com/statistics/accident-by-flig... * https://www.1001crash.com/transport-page-statistique-lg…
I am perfectly capable of being distracted and inattentive without a phone.
I don't think there's any good way to ensure people are paying attention to the whole long landing and take-off sequence when it's basically always boring.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There was confusion and no evacuation was ordered by the crew over the PA. The passengers managed it themselves. Here is an in-flight video. It appears that the passengers did not manage the evacuation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2AgoKvh-mU
The video shows passengers sitting calmly in a burning aircraft quickly filling with smoke, I presume awaiting further instruction, which may or may not have come from the crew. The scene almost defies belief.
The scene is very Sewol children told to stay so they dont move while boat sinks https://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/16/world/asia/south-korea-si...
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#455Does anyone know what stops the remaining fuel from igniting? Seems pretty amazing everyone got off, I’m looking forward to reading the full report of what happened!
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#456After 2019 incident of Sukhoy Superjet[1] I have my passport, the phone and the wallet on me 100% flight time. These three things I need to function, everything else can be left behind.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#457Definitely better links than Daily Mirror out there, avherald.com unfortunately overwhelmed, but in terms of discussion: - Crazy how well the carbon fiber A350 held up given that it seems to have landed pretty much directly on a Dash 8 (RIP Coast Guard team). Looks like trading long term flammability for initial rigidity lived up to the design intent. - Excellent evacuation job, especially as it looks like on some vi…
> Excellent evacuation job This couldn't be further from the truth. From what I've read, this was handled terribly. There was confusion and no evacuation was ordered by the crew over the PA. The passengers managed it themselves. If it were a crew-directed evacuation they would have blocked the door leading to the still-running engine as you pointed out. It took the firefighters over six minutes to respond to the site…
> The only reason hundreds of people are not dead is directly attributable to the Japanese being an overly polite and orderly culture.
Contrast this to the South Korean ferry disaster [1] where hundreds of Koreans (inb4 someone pops me with "Japanese and Korean are completely different countries..." - yes, I am aware) died as a result of being orderly and compliant. It's just an interesting counterexample where people not speaking up or questioning leadership led to their deaths.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#458For the ATC, see: * https://archive.liveatc.net/rjtt/RJTT-Twr-TCA-Jan-02-2024-08... * Via: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/35868205-post57.html 13:13 JL516 continue approach. 14:53 landing clearance. 15:01 readback. 15:13 Japan Coast Guard JA772A taxi instructions. 17:35 fire reported on 34R. * https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/35868237-post67.html The recording quality isn't very good, perhaps because of the location…
Whenever I listen to these types of recordings, there's so much static and it's hard to hear the words. Is this how it actually sounds to pilots/ATC operators or is their feed actually much clearer?
I can't prove it, but I doubt most of the ATC recording amateurs have very good antennas. Also, the ATC transmitters are likely pointed upward for obvious reasons.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#459For the ATC, see: * https://archive.liveatc.net/rjtt/RJTT-Twr-TCA-Jan-02-2024-08... * Via: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/35868205-post57.html 13:13 JL516 continue approach. 14:53 landing clearance. 15:01 readback. 15:13 Japan Coast Guard JA772A taxi instructions. 17:35 fire reported on 34R. * https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/35868237-post67.html The recording quality isn't very good, perhaps because of the location…
I really wonder how visible the Dash-8 was on the runway? After all, it has strobes, beacon, and the A350 has landing lights.
Or there's too much other flashing lights around the runway? Or the pilots were busy monitoring the displays?
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#460Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Excellent evacuation job This couldn't be further from the truth. From what I've read, this was handled terribly. There was confusion and no evacuation was ordered by the crew over the PA. The passengers managed it themselves. If it were a crew-directed evacuation they would have blocked the door leading to the still-running engine as you pointed out. It took the firefighters over six minutes to respond to the site…
> The only reason hundreds of people are not dead is directly attributable to the Japanese being an overly polite and orderly culture. Contrast this to the South Korean ferry disaster [1] where hundreds of Koreans (inb4 someone pops me with "Japanese and Korean are completely different countries..." - yes, I am aware) died as a result of being orderly and compliant. It's just an interesting counterexample where peopl…
I would not call it a counterexample. In fact we saw similar behavior here. These people escaped death by the skin of their taints. In my opinion the crew should have initiated evacuation much sooner than they did. Despite this, the passengers' behavior also prevented chaos. Any further delay would have surely resulted in casualties. It's a bit of a paradox.