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JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

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Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#51

Post by YPPH »

konschubert wrote: post #46
YPPH wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pilots are accustomed to the immediacy of voice communication, which any electronic system will struggle to replicate. More sophisticated radio than simplex VHF has too many variables, and agreeing on an international standard would be challenging. There have been some developments of a replacement of, or at least a supplement to, simplex radio. But none are as cheap, quick and reliable as verbal communications with…

“We’ve always done it like this” will no longer be a good argument when one of the increasing number of near misses turns into an accident.

Assuming (1) the replacement is a better solution, and (2) it is feasible to retrofit every aircraft in the world and switch everyone over to it.

Just in relation to (2), I can't really think of anything worse than having two communication systems on operation at the one airport - everyone must be using the same system.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#53

Post by Dalewyn »

konschubert wrote: post #36
resolutebat wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rarely that straightforward: most all runway collisions involve ATC giving correct instructions, but the crew mishears them, misunderstands them, hears them correctly but accidentally goes to the wrong runway/taxiway, etc etc. And there's usually complicating factors like terrible weather, diversions to unfamiliar airports etc in the mix as well. What remains the world's worst single aviation disaster in Tenerif…

All of which would be prevented if the plane refused to steer onto a runway that it knows is occupied. The ATC computer should talk to the plane computer.

The absolute worst thing is for an aircraft to refuse control input from the pilots, regardless their state of informedness. Lest we forget, we saw what happens when computers take priority over pilots thanks to 737 MAX MCAS.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#54

Post by asystole »

__m wrote: post #20
Nextgrid wrote: post #16

I wonder if some kind of "TCAS" for runways can be implemented - once the controller clears an aircraft for a given runway, some antennas start broadcasting that aircraft's identifier so any equipped planes approaching the runway can tell whether they've been cleared for it. For planes on approach, the existing ILS antennas can be reused but I'm not sure whether that will work on the ground - do the ILS antennas cove…

ASDE-X should warn the controller, not sure if it's installed at that airport

I'm in the realm of pure speculation here, but does ASDE-X to some extent rely on a/c having mode B transponders, which I've seen people saying the coastguard Dash-8s didn't have? If this is the textbook runway incursion it appears to be then it does seem incredible it wasn't caught by runway safety systems.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#55

Post by konschubert »

epolanski wrote: post #49
konschubert wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of which would be prevented if the plane refused to steer onto a runway that it knows is occupied. The ATC computer should talk to the plane computer.

> The ATC computer should talk to the plane computer. Not as simple: 1) You need to implement it for very small airplanes too, which is far from easy. In the Linate air disaster a small Cessna Citation invaded the runtime due to fog and misscomunication. 2) You need to implement it for ground vehicles too, as in the LATAM example it was a fire truck that invaded the runtime. 3) You need A LOT of infrastructural updat…

You can have this as an additional safety layer.

You don’t need to update everything at once.

If anything is able to react within seconds, it’s a computer.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#56

Post by bronco21016 »

konschubert wrote: post #25
epolanski wrote: post #7

I'll speculate: this looks like textbook runway invasion where miscommunication leads to two different aircrafts being allowed on a runway at the same time. Reminds me of LATAM 2213, which led to the very first Airbus 320 neo being written off [1]. Essentially, clearance to enter a runway has to be expressively given and confirmed in non-ubiquitous language ("Flight ABC requesting clearance to enter runway 01"). Yet…

it is crazy to me that all of this still relies on humans giving verbal clearance over radio. Shouldn’t there be a universal standard to communicate clearances to the computer systems of the airplanes and other runway vehicles? And shouldn’t there be a small, well-tested core system that makes sure clearance never conflicts? How on earth does all this still depend on skilled individuals not making a mistake? We got o…

I can’t speak to international ops because I’m just not sure. In the US though, we have runway status lights. At all the runway intersections there are lights embedded in the runway that will tell you if the runway is safe or not. A radar based system is constantly monitoring the runway and will light it up red if there is a potential for collision. The system works independent of any input from ATC. I think it’s actually quite effective.

Unfortunately it’s expensive and so only runways at the busiest airports have it so far.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#57

Post by supernova87a »

I dare say / guess that 2 combined factors will have helped the successful evacuation effort (especially given that these aircraft for Japan internal flights are some of the densest passenger configurations):

1. Domestic flight, with people less likely to be hauling around lots of belongings, although in Japan people already bring much less onto flights with them.

2. The well-known social expectation/procedure-abiding inclination of everyday Japanese people kicking in to enforce an orderly (and no bag-carrying) exit.

Others may have observed similarly when flying in Japan. They can regularly board a widebody plane in 15 minutes, whereas 30-40+ minutes for the US still produces departure delays. I am guessing this efficiency factors into the evacuation as well.

Versus other evacuation videos I have seen where people are actually exiting with their rollaboards. Really shocking.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#58

Post by konschubert »

Dalewyn wrote: post #53
konschubert wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of which would be prevented if the plane refused to steer onto a runway that it knows is occupied. The ATC computer should talk to the plane computer.

The absolute worst thing is for an aircraft to refuse control input from the pilots, regardless their state of informedness. Lest we forget, we saw what happens when computers take priority over pilots thanks to 737 MAX MCAS.

Okay, so let’s add an override.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#59

Post by steveBK123 »

This is why you follow cabin crew instructions and DO NOT CARRY YOUR LUGGAGE out of the aircraft in an emergency. Your luggage is not worth more than a fellow passengers life.

Contrast this with evacuation footage of western passenger planes..

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