Holy crap. That’s some news to come home to after the earthquake yesterday…
JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
31–40 of 515 posts
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#32I'll speculate: this looks like textbook runway invasion where miscommunication leads to two different aircrafts being allowed on a runway at the same time. Reminds me of LATAM 2213, which led to the very first Airbus 320 neo being written off [1]. Essentially, clearance to enter a runway has to be expressively given and confirmed in non-ubiquitous language ("Flight ABC requesting clearance to enter runway 01"). Yet…
it is crazy to me that all of this still relies on humans giving verbal clearance over radio. Shouldn’t there be a universal standard to communicate clearances to the computer systems of the airplanes and other runway vehicles? And shouldn’t there be a small, well-tested core system that makes sure clearance never conflicts? How on earth does all this still depend on skilled individuals not making a mistake? We got o…
I have thought the same multiple times.
I think the problem might not be super simple to solve through updating vehicles.
You need to update infrastructure globally (and thus you need coordination between multiple different agencies), then you need to implement the solution at both airport and vehicles level.
That's a lot of work. In case of LATAM the Airbus hit a fire truck (which would've too required such a solution). In case of the Linate air disaster, such technology would've had to be implemented on a very small Cessna Citation model.
Maybe the updates need to be implemented at the airport level alone, quickly signaling controllers of possible violations/conflicts, and in fact most major airports have both ground radars and clear ground signals to avoid these incidents.
But it's still impossible to avoid these issues as these errors may happen in a matter of very few seconds thus not giving enough time to react to any of the involved parties.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#33I'll speculate: this looks like textbook runway invasion where miscommunication leads to two different aircrafts being allowed on a runway at the same time. Reminds me of LATAM 2213, which led to the very first Airbus 320 neo being written off [1]. Essentially, clearance to enter a runway has to be expressively given and confirmed in non-ubiquitous language ("Flight ABC requesting clearance to enter runway 01"). Yet…
it is crazy to me that all of this still relies on humans giving verbal clearance over radio. Shouldn’t there be a universal standard to communicate clearances to the computer systems of the airplanes and other runway vehicles? And shouldn’t there be a small, well-tested core system that makes sure clearance never conflicts? How on earth does all this still depend on skilled individuals not making a mistake? We got o…
And yet, aviation is one of the safest industries mankind ever built. It seems those solution in place are actually pretty good.
Edit: Something I try to take to heart, if I don't have domain knowledge, I assume that whatever easy solution I can think of either was already discarded for valid reasons I don't know nor understand or is already implemented without me knowing about it. Generally, people working in a particular field tend to be competent in that field, just assuke that more often than not they know what they are doing.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#34I'll speculate: this looks like textbook runway invasion where miscommunication leads to two different aircrafts being allowed on a runway at the same time. Reminds me of LATAM 2213, which led to the very first Airbus 320 neo being written off [1]. Essentially, clearance to enter a runway has to be expressively given and confirmed in non-ubiquitous language ("Flight ABC requesting clearance to enter runway 01"). Yet…
it is crazy to me that all of this still relies on humans giving verbal clearance over radio. Shouldn’t there be a universal standard to communicate clearances to the computer systems of the airplanes and other runway vehicles? And shouldn’t there be a small, well-tested core system that makes sure clearance never conflicts? How on earth does all this still depend on skilled individuals not making a mistake? We got o…
It's rarely that straightforward: most all runway collisions involve ATC giving correct instructions, but the crew mishears them, misunderstands them, hears them correctly but accidentally goes to the wrong runway/taxiway, etc etc. And there's usually complicating factors like terrible weather, diversions to unfamiliar airports etc in the mix as well. What remains the world's worst single aviation disaster in Tenerife checked pretty much all these boxes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airliner_accidents_an...
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#35This never should have happened, and mark my words we’re going to see the same type of accident in the US if we don’t radically rework ATC.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
it is crazy to me that all of this still relies on humans giving verbal clearance over radio. Shouldn’t there be a universal standard to communicate clearances to the computer systems of the airplanes and other runway vehicles? And shouldn’t there be a small, well-tested core system that makes sure clearance never conflicts? How on earth does all this still depend on skilled individuals not making a mistake? We got o…
It's rarely that straightforward: most all runway collisions involve ATC giving correct instructions, but the crew mishears them, misunderstands them, hears them correctly but accidentally goes to the wrong runway/taxiway, etc etc. And there's usually complicating factors like terrible weather, diversions to unfamiliar airports etc in the mix as well. What remains the world's worst single aviation disaster in Tenerif…
All of which would be prevented if the plane refused to steer onto a runway that it knows is occupied.
The ATC computer should talk to the plane computer.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#37Here's a first-hand account from one of the passengers on the Airbus, somewhat decently translated from Swedish:
https://www-svt-se.translate.goog/nyheter/utrikes/svensk-fam...
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
it is crazy to me that all of this still relies on humans giving verbal clearance over radio. Shouldn’t there be a universal standard to communicate clearances to the computer systems of the airplanes and other runway vehicles? And shouldn’t there be a small, well-tested core system that makes sure clearance never conflicts? How on earth does all this still depend on skilled individuals not making a mistake? We got o…
I have thought the same multiple times. I think the problem might not be super simple to solve through updating vehicles. You need to update infrastructure globally (and thus you need coordination between multiple different agencies), then you need to implement the solution at both airport and vehicles level. That's a lot of work. In case of LATAM the Airbus hit a fire truck (which would've too required such a soluti…
You have to define a universal standard and then gradually upgrade into it.
You make it mandatory in new vehicles and for airports above a certain size.
In 20 years, you can make it mandatory for all vehicles.
I understand that these things take time.
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#39I'll speculate: this looks like textbook runway invasion where miscommunication leads to two different aircrafts being allowed on a runway at the same time. Reminds me of LATAM 2213, which led to the very first Airbus 320 neo being written off [1]. Essentially, clearance to enter a runway has to be expressively given and confirmed in non-ubiquitous language ("Flight ABC requesting clearance to enter runway 01"). Yet…
it is crazy to me that all of this still relies on humans giving verbal clearance over radio. Shouldn’t there be a universal standard to communicate clearances to the computer systems of the airplanes and other runway vehicles? And shouldn’t there be a small, well-tested core system that makes sure clearance never conflicts? How on earth does all this still depend on skilled individuals not making a mistake? We got o…
Pilots are accustomed to the immediacy of voice communication, which any electronic system will struggle to replicate. More sophisticated radio than simplex VHF has too many variables, and agreeing on an international standard would be challenging.
There have been some developments of a replacement of, or at least a supplement to, simplex radio. But none are as cheap, quick and reliable as verbal communications with readback.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_data_...
Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames
#40Definitely better links than Daily Mirror out there, avherald.com unfortunately overwhelmed, but in terms of discussion: - Crazy how well the carbon fiber A350 held up given that it seems to have landed pretty much directly on a Dash 8 (RIP Coast Guard team). Looks like trading long term flammability for initial rigidity lived up to the design intent. - Excellent evacuation job, especially as it looks like on some vi…
> Excellent evacuation job
While there many silly reasons to force people to shutdown electronics and such on planes, I think forcing people to not have any distractions during take-offs and landings is a good thing.
Over 50% of incidents (fatal and hull loss/non-fatal) occurring during landing:
* https://accidentstats.airbus.com/statistics/accident-by-flig...
* https://www.1001crash.com/transport-page-statistique-lg-2-nu...
With take-off and descent/approach being the next two more frequent phases.