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DaedalOS – Desktop environment in the browser

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Re: DaedalOS – Desktop environment in the browser

#91

Post by dartos »

rollcat wrote: post #78
vbezhenar wrote: post #36

I'm really thinking that's the feature. Compile Linux kernel to wasm. So it can run inside a browser with a very nice performance. Write FS drivers to enable seamless caching and remote data storage, so you can shutdown your system on PC and boot from laptop. Or even some kind of hibernate mode, so you can just continue from where you left off. Write graphics drivers using WebGPU and other technologies, enabling very…

What's the trade-off? I'm giving up performance and simplicity (well, what's left of it in a kernel as complex as Linux), for what exactly? To run the same apps I can already run natively? Which apps exactly - TUI apps that can already run over an SSH connection? Electron apps that already run in a browser? Are there any native apps that are worth the effort? Emacs, GIMP, Audacity, Blender, or DaVinci are all cross-p…

Sometimes people do things for fun

Re: DaedalOS – Desktop environment in the browser

#95

Post by DonHopkins »

charcircuit wrote: post #58
DonHopkins wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet another step backwards. Current desktop user interfaces are terrible, and we need the flexibility of a web browser to innovate and implement better ones, since Wayland is simply not up to it, because it's not extensible at runtime in JavaScript or any other language. (No, recompiling or dynamically linking in DLLs doesn't count -- that's just ActiveX.)

>because it's not extensible at runtime in JavaScript or any other language. Nothing is stopping someone from making a wayland compositor that is.

Except the design of Wayland, and the Wayland developers, and the many years that have passed.

Re: DaedalOS – Desktop environment in the browser

#96

Post by DonHopkins »

The_Colonel wrote: post #61
DonHopkins wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet another step backwards. Current desktop user interfaces are terrible, and we need the flexibility of a web browser to innovate and implement better ones, since Wayland is simply not up to it, because it's not extensible at runtime in JavaScript or any other language. (No, recompiling or dynamically linking in DLLs doesn't count -- that's just ActiveX.)

Web browsers are a terrible place to do innovations, a major problem being the absolute backwards compatibility they need to maintain. Web standards are massive complexity beasts which are constantly growing and basically none of that can be dropped. The dynamicity of JavaScript is actually a major problem for performance (difficult to optimize beyond a certain point), that's a major motivating factor for WASM, but t…

You can implement the innovations in JavaScript and WASM and other standards that are already there. Just like the subject of this discussion, a Windows-like desktop, is implemented in JavaScript and HTML and CSS and canvas and whatever else. That's all perfectly sufficient.

As complex and backwards compatible as web browsers and JavaScript are, you already need all that complexity anyway and already end up paying for it all. So why not use it to implement the desktop too?

I'm not proposing eliminating the web browser. Are you? I'm just saying use the web browser you already have all the way down, instead of re-implementing part of it.

The problem with DaedalOS is that it doesn't bother to innovate, it just implements old designs: Windows 95 or so. No pie menus, no tabs, no virtual desktops, no rooms, just old ideas.

But those old designs are not hard-coded into the browser, they're all just software you load into the browser and can change. Why not be able to change the entire actual desktop that way?

Re: DaedalOS – Desktop environment in the browser

#97

Post by intrasight »

moffkalast wrote: post #63
wolletd wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm looking forward to the day when I can run a browser in my browser.

"How many levels of virtualization are you on?" "Like, maybe 2 or 3 right now, my dude" "You are like a little baby, watch this..." opens 10 browsers inside browsers recursively and crashes hyper-v

20 years ago I had one of my most memorable dreams. I was in the bridge of a Star Trek ship. Something bad was happening. The captain gave an order. I yelled "belay that order - I'm from a higher level". The captain said "I am a level 4!" I replied that I was a level 10.

Re: DaedalOS – Desktop environment in the browser

#98

Post by DonHopkins »

stavros wrote: post #69
DonHopkins wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point would be to run the browser directly on the hardware without any intervening useless layers like X-Windows or Wayland, then implement the desktop environment in that, and when you needed to pop up a browser window on the desktop (which you always need to do frequently), or an html app like you'd usually run in Electron, simply and efficiently use the same browser that's running the desktop environment, sand…

At that point, you aren't using anything on the host browser except the WASM interpreter and the canvas element, so why bother with any of its other components?

Because the other components are extremely useful for implementing a desktop user interface, and you need the other components anyway to implement the user's web browser, of course.

Why isn't this obvious? I already said "when you needed to pop up a browser window on the desktop ... simply and efficiently use the same browser that's running the desktop environment". Did you read what I wrote?

Re: DaedalOS – Desktop environment in the browser

#99

Post by stavros »

DonHopkins wrote: post #98
stavros wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point, you aren't using anything on the host browser except the WASM interpreter and the canvas element, so why bother with any of its other components?

Because the other components are extremely useful for implementing a desktop user interface, and you need the other components anyway to implement the user's web browser, of course. Why isn't this obvious? I already said "when you needed to pop up a browser window on the desktop ... simply and efficiently use the same browser that's running the desktop environment". Did you read what I wrote?

What other components will you be using if you're running WASM on a canvas element?

Re: DaedalOS – Desktop environment in the browser

#100

Post by DonHopkins »

stavros wrote: post #99
DonHopkins wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the other components are extremely useful for implementing a desktop user interface, and you need the other components anyway to implement the user's web browser, of course. Why isn't this obvious? I already said "when you needed to pop up a browser window on the desktop ... simply and efficiently use the same browser that's running the desktop environment". Did you read what I wrote?

What other components will you be using if you're running WASM on a canvas element?

Why restrict yourself to running WASM on a canvas element? Maybe the desktop wants to draw something with html and css and svg. As they tend to do. Did you run DaedalOS? Do you think that's all implemented with WASM and a canvas element?

Go back and read what I read please. You're arguing about something I didn't say, and ignoring what I did say. I never said to implement the desktop in only WASM and canvas.

And it's not about cloning Windows 95, it's about providing a flexible extensible platform for making much better desktop user interfaces than Windows 95 and everything else.

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