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Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

nytimes.com

121–130 of 165 posts

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear contamination can be rehabilitated. In fact, in 2022 all of the Fukushima exclusion zone was lifted as cleanup was completed. Chernobyl wasn't rehabilitated because Pripyat's sole reason for existing was to support the nuclear plant. So rehabilitation would be a waste of money.

Sure. Nothing bad about millions of tons of contaminated soil in plastic bags... Seriously? This is a HUGE waste of money. It's a waste of money on top of waste of money, and we're talking only about soil. No houses, streets, infrastructure and finally PEOPLE.

Once again: nuclear is either the safest or one of the safest forms of energy we have. Hydro is less safe, Wind is less safe (thought not by much). Solar is about the same.

You know how much soil is contaminated by arsenic and heavy metals used in the production of solar panels or wind turbines? I don't either, because it isn't in the news. When an installer falls off a roof, it doesn't make the news.

And the other thing that people don't understand is the energy density of nuclear. A single nuclear power plant is definitely much more dangerous than a single solar panel or a single wind turbine. But you need so much more of the latter two than the former that it evens out (or more than evens out).

I would think that hackers can figure out this sort of simple arithmetic.

Nobody is saying that the accidents are not bad. However, they are not actually that bad. And certainly not nearly as bad as laypeople think. And more importantly, there is nothing that has the perfect safety you appear to demand of nuclear. These things are tradeoffs, and those tradeoffs are very much in favor of nuclear.

As evidence, I present you Ukraine: the country that had the absolutely worst nuclear accident in the history of the world. Unstable reactor, no containment, authoritarian government with horrible crisis management. And yet, they kept their nuclear reactors. And not just that, they are among the 22 countries that have pledged to triple nuclear output by 2050.

What do they know that you do not?

As further evidence, I present you Japan: the country with the second worst nuclear accident in history. The accident you keep citing as so incredibly horrible that no sane person could possibly invest in nuclear. Of course the Tsunami was far worse than the nuclear accident, and the nuclear accident only happened because the Tsunami overwhelmed the protective infrastructure, as it overwhelmed the protective infrastructure of various non-nuclear facilities.

And yet, Japan is going with nuclear, and also happens to be among the 22 countries that signed the COP28 nuclear pledge to triple output by 2050.

What do they know that you do not?

The countries with the most experience with nuclear accidents are aware that these are tradeoffs, and have come to the conclusion that the tradeoffs favor nuclear.

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need unreliable renewables when we have reliable nuclear. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But it can be nice on top for things that can be deferred or that align with availability. For example, solar seems really sweet for running air-conditioning units in hot/sunny climates. And you can probably schedule charging your EV for when the wind is blowing. But stop an aluminum smelter for more than 6 hours and the factory is kaput. An…

The renewables end up cheaper though, especially as you project established experience curves for renewables, batteries, and electrolyzers into the future. The case for nuclear is built on an every expanding foundation of wishful and magical thinking. All contrary evidence is waved away by conspiracy theoretic dismissal involving regulators and all powerful greens.

No they do not.

The case for renewables is built on wishful thinking. You wrote so yourself: projections into the future of past exponentials, plus needed magical solutions to problems that currently have no reasonable solution.

For a closer look at what happens when wishful thinking and reliance on future magic hits cold harsh reality, look no further than Germany:

Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened?

https://apnews.com/article/germany-economy-energy-crisis-rus...

"Germany risks “deindustrialization” as high energy costs and government inaction on other chronic problems threaten to send new factories and high-paying jobs elsewhere, ..."

"“It was mistaken political decisions that primarily developed and influenced these high energy costs. ..."

"A 2011 decision to shut down Germany’s remaining nuclear power plants has been questioned amid worries about electricity prices and shortages. "

"In the meantime, energy-intensive companies are looking to cope with the price shock."

"[Hydrogen for glass production] worked — but only on a small scale, with hydrogen supplied by truck. Mass quantities of hydrogen produced with renewable electricity and delivered by pipeline would be needed and don’t exist yet."

"“The perception of Germany’s underlying strength may also have contributed to the misguided decisions to exit nuclear energy, ban fracking for natural gas and bet on ample natural gas supplies from Russia,”"

Germany Faces $1 Trillion Challenge to Plug Massive Power Gap

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-25/germany-f...

"BASF SE’s plans to cut 2,600 jobs as it faces strains from the energy crisis is a sign of the urgency. The chemical giant’s operations in Germany swung to a loss during the second half, and it’s now closing a number of energy-intensive factories,..."

"“High energy prices are now putting an additional burden on profitability and competitiveness in Europe,”..."

"At the heart of Germany’s dilemma lies political plans to phase out certain energy sources without clearly setting out the path to replace them."

"Germany also needs to figure out how it will generate electricity when wind and sun aren’t available. The government’s plan so far involves readying a fleet of new gas plants that can later run on hydrogen, though it’s struggling to find investors willing to take on such costly projects."

"“Under the current framework conditions, sufficient investment cannot be expected,” ..."

"The size of Germany’s grid will have to double by 2030"

[Narrator: grid transmission lines take longer to build than even the most delayed nuclear power plants]

All nuclear needs is building things we know how to build no worse than we built them in the past. If we apply the same technological wishful thinking you take for granted with renewable to nuclear, than it's not even close.

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coasting on old nuclear. They’ve been importing renewables from Germany due to reduced capacity factor. The fleet is a money pit. https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/embattled-edf... https://www.france24.com/en/france/20230105-how-france-s-pri...

Old news, a one time occurrence in 2022 when they scheduled a lot of inspections and maintenance they had put off in the COVID years. At that point the long underinvestment caught up with them. In 2023, they were net exporting again, like they were in the last 20+ years or so. But you are right that they had been coasting and were exploiting their nuclear plants without reinvesting. That has now changed.

[deleted]

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uruguay has dams in the mountains for its hydro. The country can choose how much electricity to generate from them to compensate for low winds. That's only viable with mountains + valleys + sufficiently low population density (206th in the world). It's not something that generalizes to the entire lower 48 (but it will work fine in parts of California).

The US gets 6% of its power from Hydro. The Uruguayan experience makes it clear that it has enough Hydro energy capacity (not sure whether it has enough Hydro power capacity, but that's a lot easier to add than energy capacity). Build enough solar & wind so that you get enough power with either solar or wind if the other is not producing, and fill in the holes with hydro and the existing nuclear.

Sometimes you have a nice dam that can either tap or leave alone, knowing that the water will still be there when you need. Sometimes you just have a flowing river -- and sometimes that river doesn't flow so fast. Hydro isn't a single thing. The former can be used to compensate when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. The latter can't really. Uruguay has the former. Parts of the US has the former. Does all of the US?

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who usually play those games accuse their adversaries as ignorant, when in fact they are the ignorant ones.

I like how you went for this and didn't even touch the actual topic anymore. Pretty representative.

Ok, please explain what you mean by "results of radiation throughout generations". Or how nuclear power in France can go wrong if you didn't have either a Chernobyl scenario in mind or a "tsunami hits the right bank of the Seine". If what you did wasn't a reference to Chernobyl or Fukushima then, pray tell, what was it?

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#126

Public support for nuclear is a pure function of time since last disaster. The last one was in 2011 so in the public's mind we are back in "probably will never happen again" territory. However, we will still see more Fukushimas in the future (according to [1]). A 100X improvement in safety would really help the cause. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221462961... .

Fukushima wasn’t a nuclear disaster, it was a natural disaster.

How many died from the nuclear reactor meltdown vs the flood?

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you need natural gas in that mix at all?

I think the parent was thinking of the US. There, natural gas is an abundant predictable, and cheap base energy source. Not so much in Europe. In Sweden the mix is nuclear, water, and the rest, but we're still suffering from the rest of Europe not having a cheap base alternative, since the markets are interconnected. Europe would _love_ to have it's own natural gas source right about now.

> Europe would _love_ to have it's own natural gas source right about now.

And yet... the Netherlands closed down the Groningen gas field because the green voters wanted it and because they showed a few slightly cracked walls on a few houses on TV and claimed it was because of the gas field (and not because of shoddy foundations and poor construction).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_gas_field

We also could have been doing fracking on land. Maybe in the future?

https://www.investigate-europe.eu/posts/europes-energy-crisi...

(2.9 on the Richter scale isn't much.)

And the biggest Danish gas field in the North Sea is still down due to the old off-shore facilities being scrapped and new ones being built. This is done by TotalEnergies and should have been completed more than a year ago. It was delayed by Covid-19 but should then have been completed by summer this year. It is still not complete :(

High expectations from TotalEnergies: https://totalenergies.com/projects/gas/tyra-major-offshore-p...

Danish realities: https://energinet.dk/gas/forsyningssikkerhed/tyra/

The last platform was only put in place in October 2022 (and there was still lots of work to do): https://energiwatch.dk/Energinyt/Olie___Gas/article14460490....

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way the Concordes were the safest passenger jets, until they suddenly weren't.

Nope, this is including two accidents. And Concorde was retired because they could no longer operate it, for example no spare parts.

> Nope, this is including two accidents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde#Accidents_and_inciden... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_4590#Conclus...

And it was caused by a DC-10!

They should probably have added the Kevlar lining on the fuel tanks a bit earlier, though.

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, people have been allowed to return since 2022. We're not just talking about soil.

How is this supposed to be reassuring that you can return after 11 years? Or even after 1 year? Are you joking? Can you imagine telling the whole of Luxembourg that they have to just stop existing for 11 years? Or just Antwerp? In what mad world is this supposed to be uplifting news or an argument pro nuclear? Especially with far safer, cleaner and cheaper alternatives already there and being rolled out in months ins…

"Superfund sites are polluted locations in the United States requiring a long-term response to clean up hazardous material contaminations."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites

Herfa-Neurode stores enough arsenic to kill the entire world population. And tens of thousands tons of extremely poisonous heavy metals.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untertagedeponie_Herfa-Neurode

Making solar panels produces a lot more arsenic as waste than nuclear does per kWh.

You are under the illusion that other industrial processes don't have negative consequences. They do. And on balance nuclear is better.

Re: Nuclear power gets new push in U.S., winning converts (2022)

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, this is including two accidents. And Concorde was retired because they could no longer operate it, for example no spare parts.

> Nope, this is including two accidents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde#Accidents_and_inciden... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_4590#Conclus... And it was caused by a DC-10! They should probably have added the Kevlar lining on the fuel tanks a bit earlier, though.

Apologies, the "two accidents" I referred to were the nuclear accidents. Which are obviously in the nuclear safety stats.

And yes, caused by debris falling of a DC-10.

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