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Open source liability is coming

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Re: Open source liability is coming

#131
post #48

I use an open source screen reader, NVDA. It is completely open, and they produce an installer for people or you can build it yourself from Git. Can you help me understand now, if there is a bug in NVDA (which is under the GPL) and it causes me trouble, say, it can't read a webpage that I need for some government thing, I could now sue my screen reader, which is actually just a bunch of dudes hacking something togeth…

> Here's a crazy idea, maybe that person should be the consumer? OK, so let's say you bought a special computer monitor that had screen reading technology built in so it could read out or describe anything displayed on it regardless of operating system, even a raw video feed. And one day it catches fire and burns your house down. Most people would think it was acceptable to sue the manufacturer of the hardware device…

> Most people would think it was acceptable to sue the manufacturer of the hardware device.

Are you from the US? In New Zealand sueuing is mostly a foreign idea and very rarely occurs.

Occasionally criminally negligent behaviour gets spanked - but even there it's often an idiotic scapegoating farce (local examples: CTV building, fund fraud, Royal Commission of Inquiry into the terrorist attack on Christchurch masjidain).

One alternative system is government insurance against harm e.g. New Zealand has a no-fault ACC system for helping victims of industrial accidents.

OSS is infrastructure and trying to scapegoat an individual developer or company for unforeseen harm is insanity. Finger pointing and a culture of blame seem to be unproductive.

A good place to start thinking about policy would be to look at log4j. What policy would prevent that? Would a culture of victimising creators have prevented that vulnerability?

> sue the manufacturer of the hardware device [that starts a fire].

There's the implicit philosophy that we can use reductionism to find a cause.

Finding cause is getting more difficult as we complexify the world. Read reports on disasters, and then try to imagine how to prevent them? There's an almost Christian religious belief that penalising the person who makes a mistake will fix the system.

Cue blaming the pilot. We still often blame the pilot even after decades of work in aviation management to try and produce safety systems that try to apply a fix in the correct place.

Re: Open source liability is coming

#132
This has been a long way coming and is, in my opinion, a important step in the professionalization of software development. This article seems to refer to the Cyber Resilience Act but doesn't really explain the problem many[1] open source communities seem to have with the current draft. The CRA actually attempts to exempt open-source software by exempting non-commercial software contributions from its rules. "Commercial Activity" however includes more activities than some open-source developers would like. Any kind of regular income related to the project might fulfill the requirements to count as commercial activity.

I recommend the linuxfoundations article[2] for a more comprehensive understanding of the proposed rules.

[1] https://blog.opensource.org/the-ultimate-list-of-reactions-t...

[2] https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/understanding-the-cyber...

Re: Open source liability is coming

#133
post #14

I find this article and the reactions here confusing. This seems to me like unequivocally a good thing for open-source devs. Making commercial vendors who rely on open source software liable for bugs is fantastic news, that's how it always should have been. You can't have a commercial company throw their hands up and say "well github.com/cutefuzzypuppy is at fault for writing an open-source npm package we used so har…

> This seems to me like unequivocally a good thing for open-source devs.

I'm not certain the second order (or later) effects will necessarily be unequivocally good. Software supply chains are more like a double pendulum in that changes are probably chaotic enough to obscure their effects.

For example, my very first thought was that large businesses are generally risk adverse specifically in the realm of liability. Have you ever read a TOS? It feels to me the major elements of that interminable document are statements that limit liability. It is to the point of humor that we engage in the clicking through the "I accept" of a software license like some strange universal ritual. This is the realm we are dealing in here, deep and arcane. The ubiquitous TOS ritual should remind us all that software is beholden to forces outside of itself.

Companies go through insane effort to avoid legal liability. This law is going to change that calculus. If the cost of covering that change is high this could precipitate a change to closed-sourced alternatives that come with some delegation of liability. For the cynically minded, companies that offer equivalents to OSS that come with a liability waver might see an ascendance and potentially offer a good investment opportunity. Alternatively, repackaging existing OSS as a commercial product while only adding some legal liability as an add-on might become a viable business.

Those considerations challenge any argument towards unequivocally stating this is a good thing, even if there are definitely positive aspects to this change.

Re: Open source liability is coming

#134
A likely scenario is that software will become more expensive to consumers because the vendors will have to buy liability insurance in-house.

Also, it will raise the barrier to entry for any small vendor or a solo dev trying to make a living with open source.

"Trying to start your own small business in the EU? Tough shit. Go get a job, peasant!"

Re: Open source liability is coming

#135
post #125
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither article nor the PDF explains who is considered provider and who is not. Please point out where it says "only on if it was your product and was sold to a customer". I did not find it. There's a reference to "Decision No 768/2008/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 9 July 2008", which does not distinguish for-profit activity at all. Just "all poducts on market and all who manufacture and distrib…

Sorry, at first I thought I couldn't reply to this comment. I don't understand why you want to know what the provider is? For the purpose of liability and open source the definition is that any open source free of charge software is excluded from the proposed changes, so the provider doesn't matter. This can be seen in the first link,on the third headline bullet point "Not applicable to free-of-charge open-source sof…

Thanks. Hopefully it will be accepted like this and binding. How do you not lose track in all these EU documents?

Re: Open source liability is coming

#136
I think there are multiple wins but one I see is that the liability falls on open source commercial entities, support services, and any services that handles PII but also if I am reading the law right there is mandatory disclosure so open source projects will essentially get free code audits, patches included thanks to the liability risk.

Unless I've terribly misinterpreted the text which is entirely plausible given a lack of sleep and a enough coffee to jump start a small star.

Edit: typo

Re: Open source liability is coming

#137
Who is responsible for damages when the commercial software in question ships with its source code? What about a small business that sells a closed-source license for its copyleft software? In these cases, there is commercial activity, however, the licensee has full access to the source code. What about open core projects where the code isn't available until the time of purchase?

Re: Open source liability is coming

#138
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they aren't. Even in the most liberal interpretation of the new laws, there's nothing specifying that you need to continue making your open-source package continually and indefinitely available.

I don't mean THESE new laws, just new laws in general. > nothing specifying that you need to continue making your open-source package continually and indefinitely available. There's a difference between making it available, and deliberately causing harm and untold productivity loss in a single day. This was a case of the latter.

Someone deleted a publicly accessible file off the internet, and it broke workflows of people with whom they have no existing contract. Good luck proving that was done to deliberately cause harm.

Re: Open source liability is coming

#139
post #14

I find this article and the reactions here confusing. This seems to me like unequivocally a good thing for open-source devs. Making commercial vendors who rely on open source software liable for bugs is fantastic news, that's how it always should have been. You can't have a commercial company throw their hands up and say "well github.com/cutefuzzypuppy is at fault for writing an open-source npm package we used so har…

I think that this part of it could break either way, but the concern is that when faced with a choice between being liable for their own code or being liable for open source code, most companies will choose to write their own code. If so, that would be a net harm to open source and user freedom. I'm not sure it'll happen, but it might. The biggest issue I see with this law is around liability for open source projects…

Writing their own code is not mutually exclusive with open sourcing it. Arguably it might even be safer to open source it, since more eyes will be on the code looking for bugs.

Some of the biggest open source projects are owned by megacorps, like React (Facebook), TypeScript (Microsoft), and Tensorflow (Google). And it's clear from these examples that their stewardship has wrought benefits for both the company and the community. The company benefits from what would otherwise be their internal tooling becoming an industry standard - Facebook doesn't need to train React devs after hiring them. And the code is more robust as more people use it - Microsoft doesn't even need to use its latest TypeScript version, they can just wait for the community to test it for them...

Re: Open source liability is coming

#140
post #135
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, at first I thought I couldn't reply to this comment. I don't understand why you want to know what the provider is? For the purpose of liability and open source the definition is that any open source free of charge software is excluded from the proposed changes, so the provider doesn't matter. This can be seen in the first link,on the third headline bullet point "Not applicable to free-of-charge open-source sof…

Thanks. Hopefully it will be accepted like this and binding. How do you not lose track in all these EU documents?

I don't :/ I searched for that document for about 10 minutes and then gave up and assumed that the EU press statement was accurate.

Then somebody linked it in a comment below and then it was fairly easy as I knew what to search for from the short description in the first link.

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