Live data from Hacker News

Open source liability is coming

developersalliance.org

91–100 of 239 posts

Re: Open source liability is coming

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that this part of it could break either way, but the concern is that when faced with a choice between being liable for their own code or being liable for open source code, most companies will choose to write their own code. If so, that would be a net harm to open source and user freedom. I'm not sure it'll happen, but it might. The biggest issue I see with this law is around liability for open source projects…

> most companies will choose to write their own code. That might depend on the ubiquity of the OSS in question. If a company's option is to rely on a piece of open source software that has been used billions of times over without incident versus rolling their own solution that at best has only been tested in-house, could they say the latter is really the safer bet?

Well let's say an incident happens. A big one. Lots of egg on C-level face.

Would those execs rather . . .

a) publicly berate and fire the internal developer who created the problem

or

b) have to point out that the opaque series of tests internally just wasn't up to snuff and promise to improve them?

When the bug's in OSS and the company is held responsible, there is no option a.

Unless the OSS projects themselves are staffed up and able to provide legal responsibility, why use them?

Re: Open source liability is coming

#92
post #55

what's new here? A commercial entity selling a product that also embeds open source components is liable is that entity's product causes harm, even if the fault lies in bugs in the OSS code itself. is that new ? assuming their own license does not also indemnify them. The OSS code, at least if it's mine, has "THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED “AS IS”, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND" right there in the license. What's the change…

The article says that someone is liable. So if a user directly uses open source would the open source maintainers be liable? Would it be the operating systems company for allowing the software to run? It’s very unclear.

Re: Open source liability is coming

#93

I know this legislation is in the EU, but in the US such a regulation seems to run up against the concept of free speech. What is the difference between these hypotheticals: Case 1: I have a blog that takes a conspiracy-level, anti-tax position. In it, I say crazy things like, “The IRS is illegitimate and financial records are unnecessary.” From reading this, someone shreds all their financial documents. As far as I…

Interestingly, something similar to your case 1 has actually happened and the text was banned with the justification that it contained fraudulent information: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff#Case_regarding_...

Re: Open source liability is coming

#94
Would like to see some actual cases where this was an issue. If a plane goes down due to bugs in open source software, could Airbus just say it wasn't their fault? Can't imagine that. Or if you got hacked and customer's data exposed because of the log4j-bug, could you just say it was because of that library, case closed? That would be interesting to find out, but it sounds insane to me if you can just point at something that explicitly has no liability, that you chose to use in commercial software, and not be liable yourself.

Re: Open source liability is coming

#95
post #48

I use an open source screen reader, NVDA. It is completely open, and they produce an installer for people or you can build it yourself from Git. Can you help me understand now, if there is a bug in NVDA (which is under the GPL) and it causes me trouble, say, it can't read a webpage that I need for some government thing, I could now sue my screen reader, which is actually just a bunch of dudes hacking something togeth…

You can't.

Product liability excludes non commercial open source software, see:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/de/press-room/20231205IP...

Re: Open source liability is coming

#96
The idea that vendors should be responsible under the law for all of what they release is good.

I concur that the long term likely outcome for the late adopter crowd is "certified lts editions, supported by BlahCorp" and the long tail of decay. I don't envy anyone in that system.

The early adopter crowd probably won't notice, they will steam ahead and keep their own patchset on upstream with regular contribute-back and CI. Sure, they are liable, but they will staff to certify their own systems.

Re: Open source liability is coming

#97
post #48

I use an open source screen reader, NVDA. It is completely open, and they produce an installer for people or you can build it yourself from Git. Can you help me understand now, if there is a bug in NVDA (which is under the GPL) and it causes me trouble, say, it can't read a webpage that I need for some government thing, I could now sue my screen reader, which is actually just a bunch of dudes hacking something togeth…

> Here's a crazy idea, maybe that person should be the consumer?

OK, so let's say you bought a special computer monitor that had screen reading technology built in so it could read out or describe anything displayed on it regardless of operating system, even a raw video feed. And one day it catches fire and burns your house down.

Most people would think it was acceptable to sue the manufacturer of the hardware device. But if using NVDA somehow ended up making your laptop catch fire and your house burned down, in that case, oh well, it's just tough luck, caveat downloador etc?

What if it came out in discovery that the author was previously made aware via numerous emails that their application had a tendency to cause laptops to dangerously overheat, and they chose to disregard the problem? Is that still the consumer's financial and legal responsibility?

(Not saying there's any right answer, just wondering if I understand your position properly.)

EDIT: Just read other comments that clarified that OSS isn't subject to this new directive, so this a moot issue I suppose.

Re: Open source liability is coming

#98
post #45

There is nothing preventing scammers from modifying the software once they receive it then saying it is faulty. Especially with web technologies but even with desktop applications too.

Ask scammers to demonstrate the fault using an unmodified copy downloaded from your downloads page. If the can not, no case.

Re: Open source liability is coming

#99
post #98
post #45

There is nothing preventing scammers from modifying the software once they receive it then saying it is faulty. Especially with web technologies but even with desktop applications too.

Ask scammers to demonstrate the fault using an unmodified copy downloaded from your downloads page. If the can not, no case.

Some bugs are one in a million and may not be easily reproduced. How would you prove it’s not one of those?

Re: Open source liability is coming

#100
post #81
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use open source you are accepting the license that says that there is no liability. This is similar to going walking in a national park, there is no liability for an injury that you incur. This is very different from walking in a shopping mall. If you fall in a hole on a mountain this is your problem. If you fall in a hole in a mall it's the mall's problem. The article is attempting to create a scare about thi…

The line is very unclear to me. What if that national park accepts donations/has entry fee expressly to maintain the trail, would that make them liable for accidents or not? The telco has service agreement with customers and it's clear exactly what service it was supposed to do and failed. Where is such agreement for a random github repository? To put it a bit ad absurdum, say user supplies parameter to your math fun…

I don't understand your confusion.

If you sell a product e.g. a car and the brakes don't work you are liable

If you sell a product e.g. a medical software which calculates and runs your insulin pump and it responds to a division by zero error with injection 1000x the amount of insulin your are liable.

You don't have to focus on the how, only on if it was your product and was sold to a customer.

Who was at fault (product or customer) will be decided in a lawsuit.

If you don't sell anything then these laws don't apply to you, even if the article seems to be unclear about that.[1]

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/de/press-room/20231205IP...

Edit: Somebody linked the full EU briefing: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2023/7393...

On Page 5 there is a passage about how free-of-charge open source software is excluded and also who is liable in a commercial activity:

With the aim of not hampering innovation: (i) free and open-source software developed or supplied outside the course of commercial activity, as well as (ii) the source code of software, should be excluded from the definition of products covered under the proposal.

As far as the broader scope of the proposal compared to the existing PLD on liable parties is concerned, Article 7 of the revised PLD lists the types of 'economic operators' which can be held liable for defective products, by introducing a layered approach to liability depending on the different qualification of the economic operator.

Among the list of economic operators are:

(i) the manufacturer of a product or component,

(ii) the provider of a related service, (iii) the authorised representative, (iv) the importer, and (v) the fulfilment service provider or the distributor. The manufacturer should be liable for damage caused by a defect in their product or components. An innovation introduced in the revised PLD is considering any economic operator who has substantially modified the product outside the control of the manufacturer liable for any defect. Such a party is then considered as a manufacturer.

When a manufacturer is established outside the EU, the revised PLD would further attribute liability for a defective product to the importer and the authorised representative in the EU. As a last resort, the fulfilment service provider (offering at least two of: warehousing, packaging, addressing and dispatching of a product, without having ownership of the product), will be held liable when the importer and authorised representative in the EU are based outside the EU.

Distributors of a defective product (offline and online sellers) can also be held liable upon request by a claimant and when the distributor fails to identify any of the above operators.

Online platforms should be liable in respect of a defective product on the same terms as such economic operators when performing the role of manufacturer, importer or distributor.

Post reply on HN