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New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

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Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the last 30 odd years of increasing immigration has exerted tremendous downward pressure on US tech salaries. And countries in Europe that have not seen as much Tech immigration have seen huge boosts in Tech salaries. Comparable Europeans earn almost 1/3 - 1/2 what their American counterparts do today!

I’d be curious to hear opinions on why this large compensation discrepancy exists. AFAIK, my company has never considered outsourcing to remote Euro workers. Is there a perceived difference in engineer quality? Time difference?

Having worked in the EU and the US, here are some differences that I think are relevant for global employers:

- The hiring pool is much smaller than in the US, one reason is probably demographics and lack of skilled immigration. This makes it less attractive to hire/grow there.

- Labor regulation is much more strict. It's legally hard and expensive to lay off workers in Germany, for example.

- Taxes are much higher than in the US, so even if employers spend a lot of money on payroll, much less of it will end up in employees checking accounts.

- Demand is much lower. Tech industry in Europe is definitely there, but not booming to the same degree as in the US.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#82
post #4

Expect further downward pressure on US tech salaries.

The economy is not a zero sum game. The US created literally all relevant consumer technology in the last 30 or so years and demand for tech talent has exploded ever since. Having a competitve sector/ economy which regularly pushes the edge of innovation and hence expands demand (both on sell and supply side) is actually what keeps salaries up. This logic is as deeply flawed as often as it comes up.

Yes it is. Every foreign employee getting that tech job is a US citizen from the Midwest not getting it. Fuck this dishonest talking point, I know people coding since high school working at Toyota plants while people from overseas with entry level skill sets have employers move them to the west coast and land jobs (for whatever reason.)

It’s favoritism, it’s cronyism, it’s a nation putting its own struggling people last and it most certainly is zero sum.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#83

>“You don’t have any accomplishments,” the lawyer told him. “You don’t have a patent, or even a product.” That scolding spurred Sanjay to make a list of what he needed to do to achieve his goal of staying permanently. He improved the technology his AI-based firm was developing, expanded its customer base, and filed for a U.S. patent, which was awarded earlier this year. In May those efforts paid off, allowing him to…

As a US citizen interested in improving the visa process who regularly interfaces with policymakers, propose an objective rubric that is better and I will get it in front of policymakers. Can't guarantee an outcome, will guarantee the effort. Patent quota is bullshit, but also "I know talent when I see it" (even though I do and how I hire) isn't going to fly. Sorting hats are hard, Goodhart's Law, etc. High level, yo…

I would love to see a revamp of visa system that when someone is sponsored by companies they are required to do a 1:1 match for scholarships on the salary of someone who they are sponsoring. Alternatively make the minimum $100k or max $250k.

As someone who had someone come over on a O-1 visa, I 100% would have been willing to pay double for that person specifically.

It also removes the common issue of people who are hiring people below market rate or are trying to push salaries down for certain industries. It makes companies really make sure they actually need that technical expert from overseas.

Then open it up to everyone else if there are quotas.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the last 30 odd years of increasing immigration has exerted tremendous downward pressure on US tech salaries. And countries in Europe that have not seen as much Tech immigration have seen huge boosts in Tech salaries. Comparable Europeans earn almost 1/3 - 1/2 what their American counterparts do today!

I’d be curious to hear opinions on why this large compensation discrepancy exists. AFAIK, my company has never considered outsourcing to remote Euro workers. Is there a perceived difference in engineer quality? Time difference?

Have you heard how hardware companies like AMD suck at software?

Now imagine an entire country specialising in hardware like Germany.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#85
post #49

I'm a little surprised to see a number of anti-immigraiton comments on this thread, some of which you could describe as reactionary. The US is and always has been a country of immigrants. Your idea of who is and isn't an immigrant is simply a question of what time window you choose. In 1800, the US had a population of ~2 million. by 1900 it was ~50 million. You want to guess how itt got that way? Let's dispense of th…

> 2. Lowering wages. Restricted immigration actually lowers wages. Why? Because it allows employs to pay undocumented workers less. Poultry farms are an excellent example of this. They pay undocuemnted workers less. If they ever start making noise about wages or conditions, you clear them out by calling in an ICE raid, pay a nominal fine, rinse and repeat.

This only happens because there is no policing of companies exploiting undocumented workers. I've seen wages lowered time and time again in various industries due to the exploitation of undocumented workers. I've seen it in the restaurant industry, construction, trades, cleaning services, etc.

https://chicago.eater.com/2017/11/29/16716666/mcdonalds-bake...

I wish I could find the articles that came out about this at the time- but the bakery was reported by employees, mainly black employees that were losing their jobs to the illegals and experiencing pay cuts. The company complains about losing 21 million- bc they had to start paying fair wages to get actual citizens to work. I understand your sentiment- that if there is no pay gap between undocumented workers and citizens- then the wages should go up- but in reality- you just doubled the labor pool, so wages will not go up. I also agree- we should be blaming the capital owners for this- but my opinion is that capital owners write the laws and that's why enforcement on undocumented labor is non-existent.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#86
post #8

There's no changes that affect the real bottleneck: the annual quota on green cards and the per-country limits of 7% or children aging out. Those all require Congressional action and that's just not going to happen in the current political environment [1]. Here's my take: you get a work visa for 3-5 years that's tied to your employer and allows you to freely leave and re-enter the US. Believe it or not, we still have…

Your take sound reasonable and practical.

The only problem with it is that the problems it solves are problems for people who don’t have a say in the matter. While the drawbacks it implies affects people who have a say in the matter. (Either through voting or lobbying)

The fact that the current system imposes a form of long identured servitude on imigrants is not a bug but a feature. This benefits the employers in very direct ways.

The fact that the current system processes applications from select regions of the world much faster than other regions of the world is not a bug but a feature. It is a system which maintains plausible deniability while in effect racially selective. This is a sad and quite odious, but it appears to be consistent with the preferences of many voters.

All in all: a good plan with some fatal flaws. And I am very sad to say that.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#87

I'm an Australian citizen who has lived in the US for over 20 years, gotten degrees from Yale and Berkeley. I've worked as a software engineer for over 10 years and am currently a cofounder. I'm so put off by the immigration process in the US that I have decided to leave the US permanently. Don't worry - i still work for the same US based company remotely from a more cost effective nation. I just don't pay your taxes…

You should try the Australian immigration process.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#88

I'm an Australian citizen who has lived in the US for over 20 years, gotten degrees from Yale and Berkeley. I've worked as a software engineer for over 10 years and am currently a cofounder. I'm so put off by the immigration process in the US that I have decided to leave the US permanently. Don't worry - i still work for the same US based company remotely from a more cost effective nation. I just don't pay your taxes…

You should try the Australian immigration process.

Australian immigration process is a breeze! I'm am Immigrant to Australia too.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#89

>“You don’t have any accomplishments,” the lawyer told him. “You don’t have a patent, or even a product.” That scolding spurred Sanjay to make a list of what he needed to do to achieve his goal of staying permanently. He improved the technology his AI-based firm was developing, expanded its customer base, and filed for a U.S. patent, which was awarded earlier this year. In May those efforts paid off, allowing him to…

I would be surprised if it didn't, as other parts of the immigration system also warp post graduate education. EB-2 provides a much easier immigration route than EB-3, and EB-1 is easier still: Arguably the only road you can call easy if you come from countries that hit the per-country cap. The most reliable way to EB-2 is post graduate education. For EB-1, as listed here, will be patents and publications after a Ph.D.

So now you go look at your typical STEM department at a good US university. As you go into masters and Phds, the percentage of foreign students goes up. This isn't because most international students love academia: It's because the immigration system, as described earlier, just makes the piece of paper they hand you so much more valuable that it'd be for someone that is already a US citizen. And since it's especially valuable for students from visa-capped countries, guess what? Students from those countries are disproportionally going through that route.

If we cut the visa limits, and said that a STEM degree and some STEM employment after was a guarantee for a green card in 2 years, I'd expect the number of international students that pick that route to plummet. The disparity between the demand for green cards and the visa limit is so wide, every year the incentive to study longer just increases.

If none of those numbers change, I'd expect that the patent route will just be pushed further. So just like the visa caps are a subsidy for post graduate degrees, this rule clarification will be an implicit subsidy for patent attorneys. Then we'll have yet another set of people with a lot to lose if we raise the visa limits, or stop the per-country quotas.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#90

I'm an Australian citizen who has lived in the US for over 20 years, gotten degrees from Yale and Berkeley. I've worked as a software engineer for over 10 years and am currently a cofounder. I'm so put off by the immigration process in the US that I have decided to leave the US permanently. Don't worry - i still work for the same US based company remotely from a more cost effective nation. I just don't pay your taxes…

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