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NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

arstechnica.com

181–190 of 921 posts

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#181

If you forget about the LLM aspect, and simply build a product out of (legally) scraped NYT articles, is that fair use? Let's say I host these, offer some indexing on it, and rewrite articles. Something like, summarise all articles on US-UK relationships over past 5 years. I charge money for it, and all I pay NYT is a monthly subscription fee. To keep things simple, let's say I never regurgitate chunks of verbatim NY…

> Something like, summarise all articles on US-UK relationships over past 5 years. I charge money for it, and all I pay NYT is a monthly subscription fee. >Is that fair use? IANAL, but doesn't sound like it. If you pay someone to do the summarisation for you, then you publish the content and charge a fee for it, you're the one liable, not the person you paid to summarise it for you. Similarly if you ask GPT to do it…

That's not true at all. If you pay someone to copy NYT articles for you verbatim, and then they give the copies to you, and then you publish them online, then you've both violated the copyright. You are never allowed to make copies of copyrighted works, even for private deals (making such copies for purely personal use, such as archival, falls under fair use - but you can't build a service out of that).

So, if the summaries are derived works and not covered by fair use, then both you and the summarizee are separately breaking the NYT's copyrights. Otherwise, if this is covered by fair use, then you are both in the clear.

Finally, GPT is not "a summarization tool" in this case. If you provide a copy of a NYT article as a prompt and then ask for summarization, then yes, it is clear that GPT is not doing anything wrong, even if it spits out the exact same text. But if you simply ask for a summary of a specific article by, say, just name and date, and you get a copy of it, it's clear that GPT is storing the original data in some way, and thus it has copied the NYT's protected works without permission.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#182

NYT's perspective is going to look so stupid in future when we put LLMs into mechanical bodies with the ability to interact with the physical world, and to learn/update their weights live. It would make it completely illegal for such a robot to read/watch/listen to any copyrighted material; no watching TV, no reading library books, no browsing the internet, because in doing so it could memorise some copyrighted conte…

I disagree. The verbatim part is the problem. You’re drawing a comparison to how humans operate except we’re not allowed to operate like that. While harder to do as a human, if memorised a copyrighted book and then did a live reading on TV, or produced replicas from memory and sold them (the most comparable example), I’d be sued. Humans produce derivative work all the time, and it’s fine for LLM’s to do that, but you…

>or produced replicas from memory and sold them (the most comparable example), I’d be sued.

This is not the most comparable example, because it's not what ChatGPT is doing. The most comparable example is if you were hired as a contractor and the employer asked you to write verbatim some copyright content you'd memorised. If the employer then published it, they'd be the one liable, not you.

>Humans produce derivative work all the time, and it’s fine for LLM’s to do that, but you can’t do it verbatim.

Nobody's suggesting preventing humans from consuming any copyrighted content just because in future they might recite some of it verbatim, but that's what NYT want for LLMs.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#183

The suit demonstrates instances where ChatGTP / Bing Copilot copy from the NYT verbatim. I think it is hard to argue that such copying constitutes "fair use". However, OAI/MS should be able to fix this within the current paradigm: Just learn to recognize and punish plagiarism via RLHF. However, the suit goes far beyond claiming that such copying violates their copyright: "Unauthorized copying of Times Works without p…

> Just learn to recognize and punish plagiarism via RLHF OpenAI has created a $100bn company on this transfer. The Times may have an interest in a material fraction of that wealth.

The NYT is also worth a tiny fraction of that. If it looks like they might get anywhere, it might be better for OpenAI to buy them

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#184

Why hasn't the Times also sued the Internet Archive? They've tried to block both the Internet Archive [1] and Open AI [2] from archiving their site, but why have they only sued OAI and not IA? The fact that they haven't sued IA which has comparatively little money would seem to indicate that this is not about fair use per se, but simply about profit-seeking and the NYT is selecting targets with deep pockets like OAI/…

I think that the moment you start making big money from someone else's business is the moment that they get riled. That and when you really hurt their business. I suspect that the NYtimes thinks that IA is damaging them in the order of (possibly) $100k pa, and that it thinks that OpenAI is making in the order of $10M's from their content (and possibly doing some damage as well). It's an easy commercial decision to ignore one and go after the other - especially as going after IA is going to create some backlash as well.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#185

If you forget about the LLM aspect, and simply build a product out of (legally) scraped NYT articles, is that fair use? Let's say I host these, offer some indexing on it, and rewrite articles. Something like, summarise all articles on US-UK relationships over past 5 years. I charge money for it, and all I pay NYT is a monthly subscription fee. To keep things simple, let's say I never regurgitate chunks of verbatim NY…

[flagged]

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#186

NYT's perspective is going to look so stupid in future when we put LLMs into mechanical bodies with the ability to interact with the physical world, and to learn/update their weights live. It would make it completely illegal for such a robot to read/watch/listen to any copyrighted material; no watching TV, no reading library books, no browsing the internet, because in doing so it could memorise some copyrighted conte…

Will it? If the LLM in the body is allowed to read nytimes on a tablet I'm sure they wouldn't care.

>If the LLM in the body is allowed to read nytimes on a tablet I'm sure they wouldn't care.

Why should the law treat a LLM in a body reading NYT on a tablet differently than a LLM browsing the content from a website online and reading that?

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#187
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell, this has nothing to do with LLMs at all. In the example in the article, the user is asking Bing to go fetch the contents of an article directly from the website, and print it out, which it dutifully does. Seems like the "problem" is that NYT etc gives privileged access to search engines for indexing their content, but then get upset when snippets of the indexed content is being shown to users wi…

I suppose that's a relatively easy thing to fix, technically. It proves, however, that th underlying LLM is trained on copyrighted data. I'm not sure the problem goes away simply if the LLM in question (or any other one) gets some "no verbose regurgitation" filter.

In that case, the language model calls a search function and just repeats the result out its conversation context, not its training data. With that in mind it's not clear why it's ok for Bing itself to quote the source, but it stops being ok, when a chatbot does it.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#188

Why hasn't the Times also sued the Internet Archive? They've tried to block both the Internet Archive [1] and Open AI [2] from archiving their site, but why have they only sued OAI and not IA? The fact that they haven't sued IA which has comparatively little money would seem to indicate that this is not about fair use per se, but simply about profit-seeking and the NYT is selecting targets with deep pockets like OAI/…

Copyright doesn't stop the collection of content, it stops the copying, processing, & redistribution of content. Internet Archive acts as a library, so its widely accepted as fair-use when it makes collections of webpages available.

OpenAI's distribution is materially different to that of a library, so it's not a like-for-like comparison.

One of the main tests of copyright law (at least in the US) is if the entity distributing is _selling_ the copied/derivative work. It's unambiguous that OpenAI is selling something akin to derivative works, which is why NYT feels they can go after this claim. Meanwhile IA's operations don't create sales or incur profits, so while NYT's legal team may be able to establish that copies have been distributed, without the _sale_ aspect of the infringement, judges aren't guaranteed to side with NYT in an legally expensive PR nightmare.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#189

I see few people here bring this up, so let me: The US constitution says, The Congress shall have Power > To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; So the Congress's power to make copyright and patent laws is predicated on promotion of science and useful arts (I believe this actually mean…

Wishful thinking. Just as equally, NYT’s right to copyright over its material, in order to have a functional press, is enshrined the constitution. Anyone threatening that copyright could be unconstitutional.

I think we all agree that no one is entitled to “progress of science” at any cost - as a straw man, killing hundreds of newborn babies for scientific research is not great - so we use ethics and the legal system to find the line of what’s acceptable.

I don’t know exactly what NYT is asking for here, but the two options aren’t unconsented training vs nothing at all. NYT could license, for a fee, its content to OpenAI. It’s pretty common for scientists to have to pay for materials!

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#190

If you forget about the LLM aspect, and simply build a product out of (legally) scraped NYT articles, is that fair use? Let's say I host these, offer some indexing on it, and rewrite articles. Something like, summarise all articles on US-UK relationships over past 5 years. I charge money for it, and all I pay NYT is a monthly subscription fee. To keep things simple, let's say I never regurgitate chunks of verbatim NY…

Isn't it totally normal to write articles / blog posts that effectively summarize, and often quote from, news articles?
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