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First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

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Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about recognizing that externalities of letting corporations do whats best for their own short term profits are costly to society, and that having safe cheap constant power is a social good that makes having government run nuclear power be a good idea. how about we not let the same people that have spent the last 50 years knowingly destroy the environment and hide their culpability be the ones to make the decisio…

> before the carbon industry start the smear campaign against nuclear. The environmental Greens had a lot to do with the smear. Even recently, they were the ones who pushed for the shutdown of German nuclear power which ended up increasing German CO2 output.

> which ended up increasing German CO2 output.

That's temporary, soon that will go back down again

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#532
post #23

If I was a betting man, I would put money down that Vogtle 4 is the last nuclear reactor that gets built in the US. Solar and batteries are just too cheap for nuclear to compete. The world will be installing a terawatt of solar capacity per year soon. *excluding research or military reactors of course.

I would take that bet. Nuclear tech will also continue to improve.

So the first nuke power reactor went live in 1951.

In the 72 years since then, in what meaningful ways has "Nuclear tech" improved?

It's not cheaper to build.

It's not cheaper to operate.

It's not cheaper to dispose of the waste.

It's not cheaper to decommission.

It's not faster to build.

?

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#533
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little bit silly to compare the price of solar and batteries, which has been driven down due to extensive government subsidy, tax incentives, and massive economies of scale over the past few decades (including production in China), to the current estimated cost of nuclear plants that we have almost no experience building anymore. If we embarked on a sustained plan to invest in nuclear the way we have in solar and w…

And I “guarantee” the opposite. Nuclear is fundamentally massive complicated technology that just wouldn’t benefit from cost reductions due to manufacturing scale in the same degree. Solar is so so simple in comparison, that’s why it’s gotten so cheap and will continue to get cheaper. Maybe after 10 years of massively scaled nuke production we get costs down 2-4x . That would be nice but solar is down 30x and still d…

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Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an extremely poor example. It’s a multi phase project and for many years government didn’t provide any funding as it was not a priority. It’s not like they were actively trying to build it for 47 years, they built multiple small parts of it through multiple phases but they were never trying to build the whole thing. It was just not anything important to complete.

The criticism still stands. It should not take 47 years from recognition that a road is needed to actually building it.

What if sections will be needed now, and it's easy enough to make a plan to eventually connect all of the parts as needed? Get the zoning work done to prevent anything over 2 stories tall being built over the planned route, and then build the various sections as needed/as budget is available. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I can see smart, modular, as-needed infrastructure projects being drawn out over decades like this.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#535
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

187 million m³ of solid wood products is on the order of 187 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, which is an insignificantly small number in this context currently we need to sequester 950 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide, or about 300 gigatonnes of carbon, to get back to pre-industrial levels. this number increases by 40 gigatonnes carbon dioxide or 13 gigatonnes carbon per year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxid…

I don't think like that, and nobody thinks like that. The first target before we think about getting back to preindustrial levels, is to get to net zero by 2050. If you start measuring things against a goal that's too distant in the future, you just give up. Ok, if we talk net zero, then the what does it take the US to do that? The US is not the entire globe. Currently the US emits about 6.34 gigatons of CO2-equivale…

> The first target before we think about getting back to preindustrial levels, is to get to net zero by 2050.

yes, getting to net zero is what my calculations of 13 gigatonnes of carbon per year are based on. i didn't base any calculations on the 950 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide to get back to preindustrial levels

however, a crucial point that i was missing was that your 187 million m³ was annual consumption of solid wood products; you just said 'as of 2009 the US was using 187 million m3 of solid wood products', with no denominator. but on checking out the usda link, it says

> In 2006, an estimated 6.8 billion ft³ (187.5 million m³) of solid wood products were consumed in the United States, down slightly from 2005 but more than twice the consumption in 1950.

that is, 188 million m³ of solid wood was consumed per year; that's not the total amount sequestered in the existing housing stock for 300 million people, which is how i interpreted your comment

a crucial question missing here is how long the relevant carbon stays sequestered for; if the houses get demolished ten years later and the wood rots, we've made the problem worse rather than better. but maybe it all ends up in landfills and stays there for centuries, in which case it's making a quite significant contribution to direct air capture of carbon dioxide from natural gas plants, not an insignificantly small one as i had said

(still, i don't think it'll be competitive with point-source capture from the gas peaker flue. some form of direct air capture is probably necessary for the mobile emissions sources that will run off synfuel and for drawing down the existing excess atmospheric carbon, but it can't compete with point-source capture where applicable)

> The facts on the ground are that we don't do [direct air capture and mineral carbonatation sequestration] for some reason. Most likely there are some serious obstacles. Which ones, I don't know.

you're in luck! i do know, and i can tell you:

1. there's currently no global incentive structure to do this. the carbon-offset market is currently mostly paying people to not burn fossil fuels they were threatening to burn, chop down trees they were threatening to chop down, or paying people to plant trees which might possibly sequester the paid-for amount of carbon if they somehow live to maturity and then happen to get chopped down and buried. this depresses the price of carbon offsets to the point where you can't make money sequestering carbon. for the first time last year at cop27 we got a global diplomatic agreement to set up a global carbon trading system, but governments will probably continue to fuck it up for decades, because it's a global prisoner's dilemma problem

2. specifically with respect to direct air capture (as opposed to ccs in general), point-source capture is immensely cheaper because the flue gas is 80000+ ppm carbon dioxide instead of 450 ppm, it's just hot. so, at scale, flue-gas capture will precede direct air capture by quite a long time, though there are lots of promising dac experiments which will eventually be crucial to reversing climate change. some of them involve planting forests, cutting them down, burning the wood, and using point-source capture approaches on the flue gases.

3. direct air capture requires a lot of energy, like about 10% of current world marketed energy consumption, and energy is still expensive, because pv panels have only been cheap for five years now, so most of world marketed energy consumption still is not pv. even point-source capture requires very significant investment. as pv displaces thermal power plants, electric motors displace internal combustion engines, and the much cheaper synfuels replace fossil fuels for the remaining heat engines, we'll see a dramatic boom in world energy consumption unlike anything in the last 200 years, stimulated by dropping prices. this will make carbon dioxide sequestration significantly more affordable, which greatly eases the prisoner's-dilemma problem

4. mineral carbonatation experiments are still in the pilot-plant stages; there's no question that it solves the problem (chemical weathering has been well understood for decades), but the question is, what's the cheapest safe way to do it

> The same with synfuels. (...) it shows the technology exists, but it doesn't show it is economical in the current market conditions.

i would go further: synfuels are clearly not economical in current market conditions. they are currently too expensive to compete with fossil fuels, because there isn't yet enough pv installed to meet energy demand, so you still have to pay fossil-fuel prices for your pv megawatt-hours. that's going to change over the next decade. as pv grows to dominate the energy ecosystem, energy prices will continue to drop, and as the most accessible deposits of fossil fuels are gradually exhausted, fossil-fuel prices will continue to rise, so synfuels will become the cheapest option for heat engines

there's a certain amount of risky innovation between here and there: how fast will energy prices drop? this depends on the details of how world war iii unfolds. how much demand for liquid fuels will remain? what's the most efficient way to harness intermittent pv power for process plants like fischer-tropsch? which process will turn out to be the most profitable? will ai discover radical new processes?

but it's clear why synfuels aren't competitive today, and it's clear we're headed for synfuels replacing fossil fuels, in decades, not years or centuries

> I don't think like that, and nobody thinks like that.

some of us do, and that's why humans can now speak with those not present without making a sound, why they can fly through the sky like birds, and why human life expectancy at birth is 73 years now instead of 24. join us and we can solve these problems sooner

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#536
post #147

This caught my eye: "Prior to Vogtle Unit 3, the last nuclear reactor to start in the United States was Watts Bar Unit 2 in Tennessee. Construction on Watts Bar 2 began in 1973 but was suspended in 1985. Work resumed in 2007, and the reactor came online in 2016." More on that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Bar_Nuclear_Plant#Unit_2

It is also a Generation II reactor (like the Chernobyl and Fukushima reactors)

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ammonia?

Ammonia also requires hydrogen as an input. Ammonia is essentially a storage mechanism for hydrogen, eliminating the need for cryogenic or compressed storage. Basically, you need to find a carbon-neutral alternative to the Haber process [1] to produce ammonia as fuel. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process

The Haber process only produces CO2 if you consider the steam reformation to generate the feed hydrogen to be part of the Haber process. Technically, the Haber process itself is carbon-neutral, it's just that the hydrogen feedstock is almost never carbon neutral at the current time.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, nuke cost has only ever increased, however much was built.

On a per-MW basis nuclear power dropped in cost during the 1950s. See the small blue dots round the late 1950s and early 60s? Compare that with the cluster of red dots.

I.e., cost has risen monotonically since the 1950s.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#539

If I was a betting man, I would put money down that Vogtle 4 is the last nuclear reactor that gets built in the US. Solar and batteries are just too cheap for nuclear to compete. The world will be installing a terawatt of solar capacity per year soon. *excluding research or military reactors of course.

I agree with the spirit of your post, but I would say 10s of GW per year, instead of 1 TW per year. Currently, the US is adding about 10 GW of new solar capacity per year. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2000-_Clean_power_install...

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One kilogram of uranium-235 (50 cm^3) can theoretically produce about 20 terajoules of energy. One square kilometer of solar panels can theoretically produce the same amount (as 50cm^3 U235) in a day. I'll take this bet. Edit: Tried to edit the edit but somehow deleted the rest of the edit. It was something to the tune of how a big problem with renewables is the fact that peak solar production does not match peak ene…

Nuclear is the way forward. It’s a damn shame hippies stopped us from leveraging it. We literally wouldn’t have climate change if we kept increasing nuclear power plants in the 70s. It’s just a no brainer. Solar and wind are great but the amount of power they generate may as well be 0 compared to nuclear.

> We literally wouldn’t have climate change if we kept increasing nuclear power plants in the 70s

I highly doubt this

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