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First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

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Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries haven't gotten cheap; unless we get some crazy breakthrough total wind and solar power production will probably peak within the next 20 years.

We already had the crazy breakthrough, which is why solar and wind production are on an exponential growth curve.

You don't even "need" crazy battery breakthroughs - you can just build more wind and solar than you need + enough transmission infrastructure so you can deliver it to where it's needed. Of course batteries are getting cheaper regardless.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#472

If I was a betting man, I would put money down that Vogtle 4 is the last nuclear reactor that gets built in the US. Solar and batteries are just too cheap for nuclear to compete. The world will be installing a terawatt of solar capacity per year soon. *excluding research or military reactors of course.

One kilogram of uranium-235 (50 cm^3) can theoretically produce about 20 terajoules of energy. One square kilometer of solar panels can theoretically produce the same amount (as 50cm^3 U235) in a day. I'll take this bet. Edit: Tried to edit the edit but somehow deleted the rest of the edit. It was something to the tune of how a big problem with renewables is the fact that peak solar production does not match peak ene…

You're comparing a one-time-use resource in U235 vs. the land required for a solar plant, which will last indefinitely for all intents and purposes. Adding the "in a day" constraint is quite misleading in your comment when that is not the long-term limiting factor.

Let's not forget that the externalities of nuclear power are generally much more costly than solar / wind.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#473

If I was a betting man, I would put money down that Vogtle 4 is the last nuclear reactor that gets built in the US. Solar and batteries are just too cheap for nuclear to compete. The world will be installing a terawatt of solar capacity per year soon. *excluding research or military reactors of course.

I don't know how many times this needs to be said: solar and wind and batteries can't provide consistent enough power, either for current or the growing energy needs, of the US or the world. Alternative power sources are required to maintain energy sufficiency into the future. Period. Ask any company that builds green energy if you don't believe me.

What's more ridiculous than this oversight is the idea that the cost of wind, solar, or batteries is somehow never going to go up. News flash: all advanced industrial processes that depend on a global supply chain are subject to price fluctuations.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't lack space. But investors like a quick return on investment; meanwhile nuclear reactors only make sense if you bet on high electricity prices for the next ~70 years. The time a nuclear plant spends on construction and decommissioning is about the same as the total lifetime of a solar installation.

How about recognizing that externalities of letting corporations do whats best for their own short term profits are costly to society, and that having safe cheap constant power is a social good that makes having government run nuclear power be a good idea. how about we not let the same people that have spent the last 50 years knowingly destroy the environment and hide their culpability be the ones to make the decisio…

> before the carbon industry start the smear campaign against nuclear.

The environmental Greens had a lot to do with the smear. Even recently, they were the ones who pushed for the shutdown of German nuclear power which ended up increasing German CO2 output.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But remember that a square kilometer of solar panels needs maybe ten square kilometers of actual land. Anywhere other than at the equator, the panels need to be spaced far enough apart not to shadow each other. On a north-facing slop they would be even more spaced out. Do that in two dimensions, so they can track the sun, and keeping one square meter of panels perpendicular to the sun requires a suprisingly large foo…

Nobody builds solar farms on "north-facing slopes". Nobody is making solar panels "track the sun". Nobody even proposes "clearcutting forests" for solar farms. Trolling is in strict violation of site guidelines.

Well, actually Florida (FPL) along I-10 is right now constructing new solar farms where there used to be forests. I'm not sure if what they did with the trees constitutes "clear cutting" but the solar panels are there now, and the trees are not. I've driven the route for many years. It was all forested.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But remember that a square kilometer of solar panels needs maybe ten square kilometers of actual land. Anywhere other than at the equator, the panels need to be spaced far enough apart not to shadow each other. On a north-facing slop they would be even more spaced out. Do that in two dimensions, so they can track the sun, and keeping one square meter of panels perpendicular to the sun requires a suprisingly large foo…

Nobody builds solar farms on "north-facing slopes". Nobody is making solar panels "track the sun". Nobody even proposes "clearcutting forests" for solar farms. Trolling is in strict violation of site guidelines.

> Nobody is making solar panels "track the sun".

It's very common for utility-scale solar to use single-axis trackers (the panels move from pointing east to pointing west through the day), unlike small-scale solar which usually has fixed panels (normally pointing south or north depending on which hemisphere you're on). The gain from single-axis trackers is high enough and their cost is low enough (a single geared motor can move a whole row of panels) to make it cost-effective.

(I haven't, so far, seen any large photovoltaic solar power plant which uses two-axis trackers to really track the sun; but thermal solar power plants with a central tower need these two-axis trackers to aim each mirror at the correct angle.)

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is way way more uranium than that. It is surprisingly common. And harvesting it from seawater opens up a supply that dwarfs any mining concept. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_in_the_environment >> Uranium is a naturally occurring element found in low levels within all rock, soil, and water . This is the highest-numbered element to be found naturally in significant quantities on earth. According to the Un…

Nuclear is renewable for the same reason geothermal is renewable, and you can get uranium out of seawater for the same price as mining it https://www.tiktok.com/@nuclearsciencelover/video/7092135813...

So we moved from using Twitter as a source to TikTok? We live in dark times...

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#478
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you start cutting them down and sequestering the carbon We actually do that all the time: we cut down trees and make houses. Here's a number from the US Forest Service [1] that as of 2009 the US was using 187 million m3 of solid wood products. > you can get pretty far covering seasonal fluctuations with simple overprovisioning Fully agree. > likely advent of mass production of synfuel I'm extremely pessimist…

187 million m³ of solid wood products is on the order of 187 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, which is an insignificantly small number in this context currently we need to sequester 950 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide, or about 300 gigatonnes of carbon, to get back to pre-industrial levels. this number increases by 40 gigatonnes carbon dioxide or 13 gigatonnes carbon per year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxid…

I don't think like that, and nobody thinks like that.

The first target before we think about getting back to preindustrial levels, is to get to net zero by 2050. If you start measuring things against a goal that's too distant in the future, you just give up.

Ok, if we talk net zero, then the what does it take the US to do that? The US is not the entire globe. Currently the US emits about 6.34 gigatons of CO2-equivalent and absorbs about 754 megatons for a net of 5.59 gigatons CO2e [1]. The emissions from natural gas power generation are at 743 megatons [2]. If we could eliminate all other emissions except for the ones from the natural gas power plants, we'd already be slightly net negative. If we could keep the existing natural gas power plants, but run them only as peaker plants, we'd be well into negative territory.

You are saying that 754 megatons is not sustainable without some program of carbon sequestration. I pointed out that 14 years ago the US consumed 187 million m3 of solid wood, which is of the order of 187 megatons of CO2 sequestration. Or about 25% of the annual CO2 absorption by all the US forests and grasslands. To me that sounds like a pretty huge rotation speed, and certainly sustainable in the long run.

> by contrast, direct air capture followed by injection into the crust where carbonatation of olivine and similar minerals sequesters the carbon is a plausible plan

It's a plausible plan, but that's about it. The facts on the ground are that we don't do it for some reason. Most likely there are some serious obstacles. Which ones, I don't know. But I know that lots of things that look plausible on paper don't look so good in practice.

The same with synfuels. Where are they? Yes, there are startups, I know about the HN startup Prometheus. But for the time being, it's all pie in the sky. How much synfuel is being produced now? The wikipedia page [3] does not seem to be very up to date, which is a bad sign in itself, it means nothing of note has happened lately. But they quote a worldwide capacity of 240000 barrels per day. You can compare that with the crude oil production of 80 million bpd. And of course, that worldwide capacity of 240k bpd is mostly high carbon intensity. The low carbon intensity fraction of that is probably negligible.

The fact that Germany used the Fischer-Tropsch process in WW2 is not that relevant. Yes, it shows the technology exists, but it doesn't show it is economical in the current market conditions. And something that's not profitable is not getting built. And once it gets built, you always need to ask yourself, how long will it take us to go from where we are to where we want to be. How long does it take you to go from 1000 bpd to 100000000 bpd? Is it years, decades, or centuries? Do we see the current growth rate to allow us to create even some optimistic predictions that we'll get to some meaningful number in a few decades? If not, then there's no reason to be optimist.

[1] https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/inventory-us-greenhouse-gas...

[2] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=77&t=11

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuel_commercializati...

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#479
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have head that molten salt is much safer but also more expensive. Would there be a reason not to go with molten salt?

MSRs look nice on paper but we don’t have any experience building them. It would take a gigantic up front investment to work out the real world issues and commercialize a technology that has a lot of novel aspects like handling radioactive molten salt. Meanwhile that same money would buy loads more power in solar/wind and batteries, which are proven technologies that are getting progressively cheaper. An alternate ti…

It looks like people recently got permission in the United States to build an MSR: https://fortune.com/2023/12/13/nuclear-reactor-approval-molt...

I have not seen any evidence that solar+wind will provide a proper base load of electricity, and it looks like MSR and its variants will give people the electricity they need.

Re: First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation

#480
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have head that molten salt is much safer but also more expensive. Would there be a reason not to go with molten salt?

It will likely take a minimum of ten years to get a non light water reactor certified by the NRC. And that is very optimistic. Then you have to build the first of a kind plant which is always more expensive and takes longer. Then you have to get good at operating these new kinds of plants. It's true that MSR and Breeder reactors have lots of potential benefits over traditional LWRs but the truth is, LWRs are more tha…

FYI, an MSR got green lit recently: https://fortune.com/2023/12/13/nuclear-reactor-approval-molt...
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