Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought • Hacker News Board

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#231

Post by mikewarot » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

badsandwitch wrote: post #179

mikewarot wrote: post #176

[flagged]

mRNA can be used as indirect vaccine, by manipulating cellular factories to produce a foreign object that draws the attention of the immune system. There is no known pathway of persistence in this mechanism, and there is good reason to believe such a mechanism cannot exist as it would be a highly versatile attack vector and viruses would have evolved to be much more virulent by using it. Retroviruses do complex work…

And if some of that mRNA happens to land in cells that don't readily get replaced, like heart muscle, what happens next?

>There is no known pathway of persistence in this mechanism

No known, and published in a paper, pathway. Engineering is about using things in practice we don't yet understand. They didn't know why suspension bridges kept falling down, so they just used a "safety factor" to decide how much to over-build a structure vs its theoretical capacity.

We have no idea what the long term consequences are of this gene treatment. It's not possible to have 10 year or more data on something just cooked up in the past 3 years.

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#232

Post by lawlessone » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 3:07 PM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #147

lame-robot-hoax wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that the question to ask?

Maybe we found out in 20 years there is an mRNA to DNA long term issue? Maybe it’s good to not just one-path cancer treatments?

>Maybe we found out in 20 years there is an mRNA to DNA long term issue?

Like what? cancer? Most people would take the extra 20 years

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#233

Post by lawlessone » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 3:17 PM UTC

mikewarot wrote: post #231

badsandwitch wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mRNA can be used as indirect vaccine, by manipulating cellular factories to produce a foreign object that draws the attention of the immune system. There is no known pathway of persistence in this mechanism, and there is good reason to believe such a mechanism cannot exist as it would be a highly versatile attack vector and viruses would have evolved to be much more virulent by using it. Retroviruses do complex work…

And if some of that mRNA happens to land in cells that don't readily get replaced, like heart muscle, what happens next? >There is no known pathway of persistence in this mechanism No known, and published in a paper, pathway. Engineering is about using things in practice we don't yet understand. They didn't know why suspension bridges kept falling down, so they just used a "safety factor" to decide how much to over-b…

>We have no idea what the long term consequences are of this gene treatment.

It's mRNA for a start. So it isn't treating genes.

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#234

Post by phpisthebest » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

vaidhy wrote: post #171

phpisthebest wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is now, it has been expanded over the years most recently in response to covid as to include mRNA in the definition of what a vaccine is explicitly to shield these big pharma companies from liability for any harm adverse reactions to mRNA may have to individuals It is shocking to me that soo many people that normally at against large companies, and against even capitalism do not see the huge danger in classifying…

Citation please? Here is the procedure for getting compensated for vaccine caused issues - https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation It should not matter to you whether the compensation is paid by the government or a company, but you can file for compensation and if valid, get compensated for it.

there are all kinds of problems first and foremost is incentives if tax payers (i.e government) are paying for the losses why should they care if they injure anyone? removing product liability is universally a bad idea

Further there is all kinds of Due process issues that make filing a Vaccine claim problematic and very expensive to appeal, there are all kinds of horror stories out there about denied claims, and to appeal the denial is $$$$$$$$$$$$ and no lawyer will take it with out up front payment, and no class action is possible to spread the costs out...

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#235

Post by chiefalchemist » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 3:37 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #108

lumb63 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All previous vaccines were aimed at preventing infectious diseases. None of them are (primarily) indicated for preventing recurrence of a non-infectious disease. Whether it meets the technical definition or not, we can probably agree this is fundamentally different to all other vaccines. Also, since no other vaccines are custom to each patient, using the term “vaccine” could cause confusion. Do we really want to give…

The idea that marketed vaccines are safe & effective has been well marketed and deeply planted in the minds of the public. It's easier to leverage that familiarity than it is to build awareness and trust for "immunotherapy".

Down voted by those who don't understand marketing, human behavior, read the Heath Brother's "Made to Stick", etc.? Love you HN but you're jumping the shark.

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#236

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 3:39 PM UTC

jonhohle wrote: post #180

beowulfey wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the definition of a vaccine. A vaccine is something that registers our active immune system against an antigen, so that our body detects and eradicates it upon detection. The timing doesn't really matter and there are a lot of therapeutic vaccines [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9729511/

I took it as the literal and previously accepted definition was uniformly changed by both government and secular organizations in near unison. As late as January 2021 vaccines were thought of as dead pathogens - https://web.archive.org/web/20210118194713/https://www.merri...

> As late as January 2021 vaccines were thought of as dead pathogens

Oh, stop lying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

"The first successful demonstration of a polio vaccine was by Hilary Koprowski in 1950, with a live attenuated virus which people drank."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuated_vaccine#History

> The technique of cultivating a virus repeatedly in artificial media and isolating less virulent strains was pioneered in the early 20th century by Albert Calmette and Camille Guérin who developed an attenuated tuberculosis vaccine called the BCG vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html

> MMR is an attenuated (weakened) live virus vaccine. This means that after injection, the viruses cause a harmless infection in the vaccinated person with very few, if any, symptoms before they are eliminated from the body. The person’s immune system fights the infection caused by these weakened viruses, and immunity (the body’s protection from the virus) develops.

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#237

Post by cempaka » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 3:54 PM UTC

neverrroot wrote: post #213

ruszki wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lost track of COVID research in the past two years. Can you please provide me some good articles about bad transmission effectiveness? I’ve seen this mentioned many times here, but my search seems contradict to that: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10073587/

Conflicting papers have been published on transmission effectiveness. Everyone believes whatever they want. “Similarly, researchers in California observed no major differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in terms of SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in the nasopharynx, even in those with proven asymptomatic infection. Thus, the current evidence suggests that current mandatory vaccination policies might need…

None of the studies showing some level of effectiveness against transmission/infection show anything close to what would be necessary to establish herd immunity and thus provide durable protection against eventual infection for those who can't be vaccinated.

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#238

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

futuretaint wrote: post #175

AYBABTME wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without taking a side or another.. I just want to note that the definition you shared starts with "preventive" which is the point GP is focusing on.

I'm not taking a side either, but seeing as drug companies are shielded from liability w/ vaccines, if I was a drug company I would be motivated to lobby broadening the definition. it would just be good business.

Drug companies are only shielded for specific vaccines deemed necessary countermeasures. It isn’t automatic for all vaccines; the COVID vaccines had to be deliberately added to the list via a formal process.

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#239

Post by bugglebeetle » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

signatoremo wrote: post #215

bugglebeetle wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refer, again, to the example of Cuba’s COVID vaccine.

Check out the list of drugs that Moderna has in the pipeline: https://www.modernatx.com/research/product-pipeline Almost all of them are still long way to go before becoming commercial products, if at all. Does it look like they run off with it as you asserted? Or do they have to shoulder the development cost and risk? One of the drugs is of course their COVID vaccine which is a home run. It’s the potential of such w…

Cuba has a fairly large biomedical sector and export industry, despite being under crushing sanctions. It’s absurd to ask about the scale of their development relative to private industry in the US because it’s impossible for them to even gain access to the same raw materials. But that’s also entirely beside the point because the discussion was about whether we need to allow Moderna to rake in billions off public investment in basic research and IP rentiering in order to make COVID vaccines possible. The example of the Cuban vaccine disproves this, but all the pharma apologists of course prefer to talk circles around this point instead of addressing it.

Re: Moderna's mRNA cancer vaccine works better than thought

#240

Post by vaidhy » Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 6:10 PM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #234

vaidhy wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation please? Here is the procedure for getting compensated for vaccine caused issues - https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation It should not matter to you whether the compensation is paid by the government or a company, but you can file for compensation and if valid, get compensated for it.

there are all kinds of problems first and foremost is incentives if tax payers (i.e government) are paying for the losses why should they care if they injure anyone? removing product liability is universally a bad idea Further there is all kinds of Due process issues that make filing a Vaccine claim problematic and very expensive to appeal, there are all kinds of horror stories out there about denied claims, and to a…

That is why vaccines need FDA approval in the first place.

Everything else you said is true for all kinds of appeal and not just for vaccines. There are horror stories about everything and lawyers not wanting to take things up without upfront payment. But that does not stop those things. Marriage and divorce, child custody, DUI cases, police excess, companies overcharging for things, DMCA being used incorrectly, tech companies having too much power etc. are all problematic and very expensive to appeal. But we live with those. Similarly, there are trade-offs here.