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Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

npr.org

211–220 of 220 posts

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the costs can be passed on, then there is potentially no incentive to innovate, either. It might also still be more cost efficient to innovate less to reduce costs than to actually innovate to reduce costs. Predicting where these things go is quite tricky.

But if the costs can be passed on then that’s a means for emitters to differentiate on cost. If manufacturer A emits more and passes the tax onto the consumer, manufacturer B can undercut on them on price if they’re more efficient. Right now there’s minimal financial benefit to being more carbon efficient. If anything it’s disincentivised because efficiency is itself costly, so it’s cheaper to just emit.

But only if undercutting isn't too expensive/pays back fast enough. The issue is that from a revenue perspective things always look simple, from a profit perspective it gets more complicated, especially if things have switching costs/limited fungibility, are oligopolies and other structured markets. It might work like you outline but I would not be surprised if there are a lot of unexpected or undesirable results, too.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you should run the fan for all uses, you are in all cases combusting indoors whenever you are using the gas stove/oven, unless you are glancing at the time.

I haven't had a real range vent in my last three apartments. The hood just vents into the room. Two of those were both gas and new construction. So I'm guessing for a lot of people it doesn't matter very much!

I don’t know about the ones you’ve had, but I’ve installed a few not “real” range vents in my house over the years, and they vented into the wall, not the room itself.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what, specifically, is their "Agenda?" What is "The Narrative?" These threads always seem to bring out people pointing their fingers at The Narrative, but they don't say what that narrative is. You can't just say "It's Their Agenda" and "It's The Narrative" and just leave it at that! OP's point at least makes sense: The thing that actually seems to motivate journalism companies is to "make money by publishing art…

They’re just trying to muddy the waters. Just shouting that someone has an “agenda” is enough to make some people uncritically drop any facts that are uncomfortable. In this case it’s honestly silly. News publications started widely publishing articles on gas stoves when research papers came out a couple of years ago indicating they posed health risks. They didn’t all simultaneously develop an anti-gas stove “agenda”…

> They’re just trying to muddy the waters.

Who are They? I am one person, not a group or cabal. There are others who notice the same pattern, also individuals. Realise that the they is just a applicable to those pushing the current thing.

> News publications started widely publishing articles on gas stoves when research papers came out a couple of years ago

Yes, a couple of years ago. Not decades ago, not even 10 years ago. Recently.

As to the gas industry it is worth knowing that cooking stands for only a tiny fraction of gas use so even if people stopped cooking on gas they would see much of a dip in profits. What is really at play here is that people really like cooking on gas stoves and are not about to give it up without being forced to do so. Rising gas prices will not do that because cooking only uses small amounts of gas. What was needed was some other means to get those pesky gas cookers off the market. Once the gas cooker is gone it will be easier to wean people of gas-fired central heating and gas-fired clothes driers given that most people have less of a preference for those but are likely to keep on using them as long as they need to have a gas hookup for their cookers anyway.

The gas companies know this as well of course so it is not surprising to see them react. While cooking may be only a small part of their income heating does represent a sizeable fraction.

With propaganda from "both" sides it is imperative to use your head when dealing with the issue of air quality inside the home. If you have an air quality meter/monitor you can use that as well but even without one the solution is clear: use ventilation when cooking. Use it no matter which heat source is involved. Problem, solved? From what I gather the answer to that question is mostly, "yes".

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t really relevant though, is it? I don’t think anyone claims that infrastructure doesn’t have costs. Of course it does. But the argument is that the benefits are worth the cost. Brining up a gas pipeline explosion as relevant to a discussion about stoves isn’t useful unless you quantify what portion of that pipeline went toward cooking. The argument that all gas should be eliminated because 8 people died in…

People don't want to die is too simple?

I mean the significance. People die with all infrastructure projects.

Any loss of life is sad. But 8 lives is important depending on the value from their loss. If it’s 8 lives in 100 years to allow 300 million people to have gas then that may be acceptable. Just like the loss of life from building hydro dams and solar arrays and whatnot.

The simplicity isn’t in the loss of life, it’s in not performing the analysis to know if it’s meaningful or not. I suspect it’s not meaningful.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re just trying to muddy the waters. Just shouting that someone has an “agenda” is enough to make some people uncritically drop any facts that are uncomfortable. In this case it’s honestly silly. News publications started widely publishing articles on gas stoves when research papers came out a couple of years ago indicating they posed health risks. They didn’t all simultaneously develop an anti-gas stove “agenda”…

> They’re just trying to muddy the waters. Who are They ? I am one person, not a group or cabal. There are others who notice the same pattern, also individuals. Realise that the they is just a applicable to those pushing the current thing . > News publications started widely publishing articles on gas stoves when research papers came out a couple of years ago Yes, a couple of years ago. Not decades ago, not even 10 y…

OK, that all's great, but what specifically is NPR's agenda? What specifically is "their desired narrative?" Are you saying that NPR is in the pocket of the Oil and Gas industry? Or are they in the pockets of someone (who?) against Oil and Gas? It's hard to tell.

You said:

> NPR/PBS, just like e.g. SVT/SR in Sweden, the BBC in the UK, NOS in the Netherlands and ARD/ZDF/NDR in Germany are better characterised by the term agenda-driven journalism - they tailor what they publish and how they publish to fit their desired narrative.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? Where did you get such a ridiculous idea?

First google https://www.neff.com.au/service/support/induction-cooktops/w... .

Well that’s flat-out wrong, and stupid to boot.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But many homes already have it (in europe). Huge network of big and small pipelines. Replacing is a cost.

> Replacing is a cost. Sorry, I don't understand. What is being replaced? With what?

"I have a gas range, gas water heater, gas logs, and gas backup heat."

With the electricity equivalent.

Makes sense when all is powered by green energy, but it does not makes sense to switch all that and power it with electricity from coal. Then the CO2 costs are higher.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Replacing is a cost. Sorry, I don't understand. What is being replaced? With what?

"I have a gas range, gas water heater, gas logs, and gas backup heat." With the electricity equivalent. Makes sense when all is powered by green energy, but it does not makes sense to switch all that and power it with electricity from coal. Then the CO2 costs are higher.

Coal is less than 20% and is continuously going down. Coal will be negligible in a decade or so. Renewables is more than 20% and growing!

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't had a real range vent in my last three apartments. The hood just vents into the room. Two of those were both gas and new construction. So I'm guessing for a lot of people it doesn't matter very much!

I don’t know about the ones you’ve had, but I’ve installed a few not “real” range vents in my house over the years, and they vented into the wall, not the room itself.

I promise these didn't. No vent connected to one that was supposed to have it, easy to see in the cabinet above it. The other two were microwaves that eject the air straight out the front. They're designed to do that.

So, it's a thing.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction is really nice in terms of speed and responsiveness but it's harder to do the tiny adjustments that you can do with gas because the induction is digital rather than analog.

Tiny adjustments is a nice way of saying you avoid wild variations spatially and temporally when you use gas.

I mean, I feel like induction is less precise, but I suspect my cooking has actually improved as it stops me doing silly things with gas.
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