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Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

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11–20 of 54 posts

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#11
An interesting approach I came across at NeurIPS a few weeks ago is called "ML with Requirements"[1]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.03674

My basic understanding is that it combines "standard" supervised learning techniques (neural nets + SGD) with a set of logical requirements (e.g. in the case of annotating autonomous driving data, things like "a traffic light cannot be red and green at the same time"). The logical requirements not only make the solution more practically useful, but can also help it learn the "right" solution with less labelled data.

[1] I don't know if they had a NeurIPS paper about this; I was talking to the authors about the NeurIPS competition they were running related to this approach: https://sites.google.com/view/road-r/home

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#12
Is there “I” part in logic at all? We ourselves aren’t logical. We happened to invent/discover logic as a way to interact closer with the world and learned to basically simulate a weak, leaky logic machine runtime in our minds. Later someone smart offloaded it to electronics (made with that exact principle, btw, which is one of these “hidden right before your eyes” type of nuances). Custom coding is probably the correct answer.

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#14

"Formal reasoning" or "logic" as you suggest is a model for finding "truth" from static inputs and simple operations. However, if the inputs are random variables (they have an associated distribution) then so (likely) are the outputs, and "truth" is still a random variable. The world we live in is better modeled by the latter than the former, and as such the "decision tree" approach of AI seems like a more reasonable…

You can still have stochastic model that works on and/or produces ie. coq formalism.

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#15
post #2

Gemini Ultra should show good progress according to Google - it's supposed to perform better than 85% of computer science competitors, which requires a lot of logical reasoning. Lets see it once it goes live, but sounds promising.

Imaginary models hyped/faked/lipsticked by PR deparment, in future tense, in the field that advances on daily basis is quite weak in most discussions.

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#16
AI is not even close to having true logical reasoning, that's probably decades away. The issue is that cognitive scientists are clueless. Scientists have a good model for associative reasoning, which is the basis of modern neural networks, but we don't have a clue how abstract reasoning actually works. All birds and mammals have advanced abstract reasoning and are far more intelligent than GPT-4:

- birds and mammals are inherently able to count in almost any context because they understand what numbers actually mean; GPT-4 can only be trained to count in certain contexts. GPT-4 would be like a pigeon that could count apples, but not oranges, yet biological pigeons can count anything they can see, touch, or hear. There's a profound gap in true quantitative reasoning, even if GPT-4 can fake this reasoning on specific human math problems.

- Relatedly, birds and mammals are far faster at general pattern recognition than GPT-4, unless it has been trained to recognize that specific pattern.

- Birds and mammals can spontaneously form highly complex plans; GPT-4 struggles with even the simplest plans, unless it has been trained to execute that specific plan.

The "trained to do that specific thing" is what makes GPT-4 so much dumber than warm-blooded vertebrates. When we test the intelligence of an animal in a lab, we make sure to test them on a problem they've never seen before. If you test AI like you test an animal, AI looks incredibly stupid - because it is!

There was a devastating paper back in 2019[1] proving that Google's BERT model - which at the time was world-class at "logical reasoning" - was entirely cheating on its benchmarks. And another paper from this year[2] demonstrates that LLMs definitely don't have "emergent" abilities, AI researchers are just sloppy with stats. It is amazing how much bad science and wishful thinking has been accepted by the AI community.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1907.07355

[2] https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.15004

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#17

AI is not even close to having true logical reasoning, that's probably decades away. The issue is that cognitive scientists are clueless. Scientists have a good model for associative reasoning , which is the basis of modern neural networks, but we don't have a clue how abstract reasoning actually works. All birds and mammals have advanced abstract reasoning and are far more intelligent than GPT-4: - birds and mammals…

Aren't animals trained to do all of those things through evolution? Similarly how GPT is trained.

Also how do you prove that GPT is worse at counting?

Because GPT can currently count both apples and oranges.

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#18

AI is not even close to having true logical reasoning, that's probably decades away. The issue is that cognitive scientists are clueless. Scientists have a good model for associative reasoning , which is the basis of modern neural networks, but we don't have a clue how abstract reasoning actually works. All birds and mammals have advanced abstract reasoning and are far more intelligent than GPT-4: - birds and mammals…

Yeah, the "logical reasoning" in LLMs is mostly a marketing device to get products sold and papers published. One could hope that starting with reasoning instead of trying to get it "emerge" would do a better job. But if we have little idea of how abstract thinking actually works, this is a problem. What do you think about current logic-based AI approaches? Do they try to replicate the best ideas we've got from congnitive sciences, or trying to do their job for them?

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#19
post #18

AI is not even close to having true logical reasoning, that's probably decades away. The issue is that cognitive scientists are clueless. Scientists have a good model for associative reasoning , which is the basis of modern neural networks, but we don't have a clue how abstract reasoning actually works. All birds and mammals have advanced abstract reasoning and are far more intelligent than GPT-4: - birds and mammals…

Yeah, the "logical reasoning" in LLMs is mostly a marketing device to get products sold and papers published. One could hope that starting with reasoning instead of trying to get it "emerge" would do a better job. But if we have little idea of how abstract thinking actually works, this is a problem. What do you think about current logic-based AI approaches? Do they try to replicate the best ideas we've got from congn…

> One could hope that starting with reasoning instead of trying to get it "emerge" would do a better job.

We did AI starting with reasoning (directly implementing rules of propositional logic) first, it is called expert systems.

It works very well for some things, but after some efforts to expand it with things like fuzzy logic it became pretty much accepted that we'd reached its limit.

You could hope that it would work better, but...

Re: Ask HN: What is the current state of "logical" AI?

#20

AI is not even close to having true logical reasoning, that's probably decades away. The issue is that cognitive scientists are clueless. Scientists have a good model for associative reasoning , which is the basis of modern neural networks, but we don't have a clue how abstract reasoning actually works. All birds and mammals have advanced abstract reasoning and are far more intelligent than GPT-4: - birds and mammals…

Aren't animals trained to do all of those things through evolution? Similarly how GPT is trained. Also how do you prove that GPT is worse at counting? Because GPT can currently count both apples and oranges.

> Aren't animals trained to do all of those things through evolution? Similarly how GPT is trained.

No. Animals evolved and are able to do those things. Evolution is not training, and evolution has approximately zero to do with how transformers work.

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