Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) • Hacker News Board

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#271

Post by chaorace » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:25 AM UTC

Daub wrote: post #251

'Thou' was used to refer to someone of a lower social rank and also to indicate intimacy or familiarity. AFAIK 'thee' was used in a similar way. In some parts of the UK, thou is still used. Certainly I have been addressed in this way in the past.

Reminds me of the Japanese pronoun 君 (pronounced "ki-mi"). The nuance is surprisingly similar (appropriate for lovers & underlings, almost never strangers), cultural & geographical gaps notwithstanding.

Makes you wonder what kind of wires must get crossed in the human id for intimate pronouns to function this way.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#272

Post by abtinf » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:26 AM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #264

snidane wrote: post #109

As someone coming from a culture with T-V distinction [1], I always wished we dropped one of the branches like English did in the past. The informal T vs formal V causes confusion in conversation with semi-strangers. Eg. At work you never really know which way to speak to someone at a watercooler. If you choose the informal T you make them your equal. Ehich might be perceived as insulting to them, since they might wa…

> This felt to me like one of the reasons why English became the dominant language for business over time. I don't think that has much to do with it. I think it has more to do with the dominant political and economic position of the United States. French served a similar role in the past despite having all the features you describe.

America was an economic backwater until the 1900s.

France was, and to a greatly diminished extent still is, a global power.

French has T-V distinction.

French has arbitrary noun gendering.

The noun gendering alone makes it significantly easier to embarrass yourself speaking French than English.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#273

Post by OJFord » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:28 AM UTC

8372049 wrote: post #218

softfalcon wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I feel like people forget about that whole British Imperialism thing too easily. We all speak English because at one point the English practically owned the entire planet.

That's not universally true. In my country, German was the widely accepted and taught second language until WW2. Since then it's been English.

How is that not essentially the same point? The second language was determined by international politics, not linguistic merit.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#274

Post by abtinf » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:30 AM UTC

FromTheSteppe wrote: post #158

snidane wrote: post #109

As someone coming from a culture with T-V distinction [1], I always wished we dropped one of the branches like English did in the past. The informal T vs formal V causes confusion in conversation with semi-strangers. Eg. At work you never really know which way to speak to someone at a watercooler. If you choose the informal T you make them your equal. Ehich might be perceived as insulting to them, since they might wa…

Is speaking to someone formally considered ending up in an inferior position in all cultures? In Persian if someone expects to be spoken with formally, they have to speak formally themselves. So when you speak formally you're kinda bringing both parties up. You can even flirt by speaking formally.

Formal Farsi borders on being its own dialect. I grew up only learning informal "street" Farsi, and find formal Farsi to be almost impenetrable (granted I've never tried to learn it).

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#275

Post by cyphar » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:30 AM UTC

pm215 wrote: post #35

propter_hoc wrote: post #7

Second person pronouns are so fascinating! Not only is "you" the formal, polite plural form, but calling someone "thou" was also seen as so informal as to be rude (in verb form, to "thou" someone). This has a modern equivalent in the term "tutoyer" in French. https://www.etymonline.com/word/thou An interesting counterpoint is the usage in Japanese of sarcastically polite forms like お前 and 貴様, where you use a pronoun…

There seems to be a certain amount of "euphemism treadmill" in Japanese pronouns, where they start off polite and drift downward in acceptability to be replaced by new ones. I have a grammar book from 1906 ("Hossfeld’s Japanese Grammar") which effectively documents some of that drift: for second person pronouns, apparently you could still get away with “addressing inferiors familiarly” with ‘kisama’ in 1906, so it ha…

主(nushi) has wrapped back around to being more on the polite side, though I get the impression it's used more by older people. There's also phrases like 持ち主(mochi-nushi -- person who is a holder of something) that have ossified the pronoun so it probably won't go away entirely for a while.

I think the reason for the rotation of pronouns is because people start using them sarcastically which means it's no longer seen as respectful, and so new pronouns become necessary.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#276

Post by pvg » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:34 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #216

LAC-Tech wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it's the same word! In the ancestor language of both English and German (and also Dutch, Low German, and many others) it's been reconstructed as "þū".

What is the ancestor language, and how do you pronounce þū?

proto-West Germanic by current thinking (at least, by Wikipedia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germanic_languages#Validi...

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#277

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:34 AM UTC

abtinf wrote: post #272

emodendroket wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This felt to me like one of the reasons why English became the dominant language for business over time. I don't think that has much to do with it. I think it has more to do with the dominant political and economic position of the United States. French served a similar role in the past despite having all the features you describe.

America was an economic backwater until the 1900s. France was, and to a greatly diminished extent still is, a global power. French has T-V distinction. French has arbitrary noun gendering. The noun gendering alone makes it significantly easier to embarrass yourself speaking French than English.

There are not that many words distinguished only by gender and I don’t think the number of those where it would really be an embarrassing blunder is that great. All languages offer pitfalls like this anyway.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#278

Post by throwaway2037 » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:34 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #246

blowski wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it because of cultural expectations in how men and women should address each other? Does the formal language get used for properly formal situations as well? Is there a whole set of specific terms for this? Sorry for all the questions. I just found it fascinating.

Not sure about the specifics for Iran in particular (the grandparent can answer), I've just heard about that from some friends hailing from there. But I could relate it, as it was a "chic" thing to do in my parts too back in the day (until around the 1970s), for upper class folks (using the polite forms of address, and so on). A good analogy in English terms might be the flirting with all the speaking formalities in…

FYI: Large parts of Afghanistan and Tajikistan also speak Persian. I was surprised to learn this recently.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#279

Post by devilbunny » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:37 AM UTC

calvinmorrison wrote: post #253

shaky-carrousel wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always start formal (except with kids), and if the other part switches to informal, then I switch too.

Growing up in the south it was all yes sir no sir yes ma'am no ma'am

And in many ways still is, especially for kids, but Southern English also has mechanisms for expressing familiarity and respect at the same time - it was in no way unusual for us to call friends' parents by their first name, provided we prefixed it with "Mr/Miss" (always Miss, for some reason, even if an obviously married woman).

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#280

Post by throwaway2037 » Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:38 AM UTC

jmac01 wrote: post #223

snidane wrote: post #109

As someone coming from a culture with T-V distinction [1], I always wished we dropped one of the branches like English did in the past. The informal T vs formal V causes confusion in conversation with semi-strangers. Eg. At work you never really know which way to speak to someone at a watercooler. If you choose the informal T you make them your equal. Ehich might be perceived as insulting to them, since they might wa…

Is it culturally English speaking to think this just sounds like social anxiety rather than an expected norm? If someone thought they were superior than me and expected a particular greeting or whatever, I'd tell them where to shove it lol We are all equal.

What is your native language and home country? Would your view change if you spent some time in a language/culture where this is normal (Korea/Japan)?