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Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

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Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#181

Post by coldtea »

blowski wrote: post #162
FromTheSteppe wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is speaking to someone formally considered ending up in an inferior position in all cultures? In Persian if someone expects to be spoken with formally, they have to speak formally themselves. So when you speak formally you're kinda bringing both parties up. You can even flirt by speaking formally.

How does the “flirting by speaking formally” work? “I say, does Madam visit this establishment frequently”.

Yes, but imagine it not sounding funny like in the English case, because it's a normal feature of the language/culture...

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#182

Post by pvg »

hilbert42 wrote: post #175
pvg wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll second just about all of this, the one bit of colour I can add - years ago I had a summer job in a German-speaking (auto) shop where a majority of the workers, including some of the management were immigrants with a fairly wide range of German proficiency but everyone had picked up the onsite du/Sie conventions (along with some others like shaking hands at the beginning of the shift). It's, like you're saying, a…

Right, see my reply to biztos.

Funnily enough, my example was also from Vienna in the 90's, a specific place and time somewhat more, err, uptight about these things than I'd say today's conversational German on average.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#183

Post by astrea »

I think about what’s discussed often as it relates to euphemisms. For example, exonyms for minorities or disabled people changes all the time. My theory is that euphemisms are “disposable” in that they start “clean” with no external meaning or definition and therefore can’t be perceived as negative. Over time, it absorbs meaning and context and eventually it becomes as “dirty” as word it supplanted and the cycle continues.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#184

Post by dragonwriter »

peyton wrote: post #173
softfalcon wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I feel like people forget about that whole British Imperialism thing too easily. We all speak English because at one point the English practically owned the entire planet.

The competition was very aggressive, escalating into several Anglo-Dutch wars. The VOC absolutely outcompeted the EIC most of the time. How do you explain the staying power of English given that “imperialism” is the more appropriate context, not “British Imperialism”?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_colonial_empire#/media/F...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire#/media/File:The...

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#185

Post by blowski »

coldtea wrote: post #181
blowski wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the “flirting by speaking formally” work? “I say, does Madam visit this establishment frequently”.

Yes, but imagine it not sounding funny like in the English case, because it's a normal feature of the language/culture...

Is it because of cultural expectations in how men and women should address each other? Does the formal language get used for properly formal situations as well? Is there a whole set of specific terms for this?

Sorry for all the questions. I just found it fascinating.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#186

Post by fanf2 »

verditelabs wrote: post #46

In my native Texan English, "y'all" can certainly act as a singular polite "you" (EDIT: though it is not terribly common). I often use "Howdy, how y'all doin?" as a polite greeting to people I don't know regardless of the number of people I am addressing, though switch to just "you" after making acquaintance. Funny enough, "howdy" is a contraction of the older "how do ye" and some people still consider it both a gree…

Re. “howdy”, in (somewhat old-fashioned) posh English speech, “how d’you do?” as a greeting is not an enquiry: the idiomatic response is to say “how d’you do” in return. Weird.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#188

Post by MrsPeaches »

dustincoates wrote: post #147
yawaramin wrote: post #18

'Thou' is also used in English prayers ('Thy kingdom come, thy will be done'), as a mark of a personal closeness to God.

That's really more due to the influence of the King James Version than anything else. For example, ESV uses you: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206%3A5... In French, however, God is always referred to with the informal tu, which surprises second language learners. But it makes sense when you realize that using plural for formal came about well after the Hebrew Bible, and because it was to implic…

Also informal in English (c.f. The use of thou in the Lord’s Prayer)

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#189

Post by andrepd »

snidane wrote: post #109

As someone coming from a culture with T-V distinction [1], I always wished we dropped one of the branches like English did in the past. The informal T vs formal V causes confusion in conversation with semi-strangers. Eg. At work you never really know which way to speak to someone at a watercooler. If you choose the informal T you make them your equal. Ehich might be perceived as insulting to them, since they might wa…

T-V culture is speaking for years in periphrases and passive tense to a semi-acquaintance when you're not sure which form to use and too much time has passed that it's now awkward to ask.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#190

Post by andrepd »

FromTheSteppe wrote: post #158
snidane wrote: post #109

As someone coming from a culture with T-V distinction [1], I always wished we dropped one of the branches like English did in the past. The informal T vs formal V causes confusion in conversation with semi-strangers. Eg. At work you never really know which way to speak to someone at a watercooler. If you choose the informal T you make them your equal. Ehich might be perceived as insulting to them, since they might wa…

Is speaking to someone formally considered ending up in an inferior position in all cultures? In Persian if someone expects to be spoken with formally, they have to speak formally themselves. So when you speak formally you're kinda bringing both parties up. You can even flirt by speaking formally.

The Wikipedia article linked lists several types of T-V distinctions. Some are based on age, others on age difference, social status, and many more subtle factors. They also change very quickly: my parents speak to their parents with V but I do with T.
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