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Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

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Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#91

Post by pruetj »

verditelabs wrote: post #81
pruetj wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting on the “y’all”. I’m a Texan and have never addressed a singular person as y’all. If I do address a person as y’all as in “How are y’all doing?”, it’s assumed I’m speaking of the family unit that person belongs to rather than the individual. While we Texans might find it polite or friendly, in the corporate world I’ve been told to avoid using it in emails.

I think you're right about the implicit group/family aspect in many cases. If I'm taking to one friend and say "how are y'all doing" then that friend's family or ingroup is certainly implied in the question. The singular polite "y'all" I'm referring to is generally used when the other party is not known. F.ex. I regularly, though certainly not always, hear clerks, waiters, or other service industry workers using "y'a…

Ah, got it. I know what you are referring to now. Yea, it is seen in hospitality more often.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#92

Post by netsharc »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #68

I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know. Maybe I should completely ditch it, and use the informal one with everyone new, just with the hopes of building immediate rapport. I must not be the only one to hate it, and surely those people who would mind me using the informal one are not…

German also has the 2 levels, but addressing the police with the informal you might get you into trouble. There's a great clip (not sure if it's a sketch show or a 360p mobile phone recording) of a guy peeking out of his apartment door and seeing a lot of coos, and he says to one of them, "Piss off, you (informal) asshole!." . The cop says "excuse me?", and the guy responds with, "Ah, sorry, you (formal) asshole!". The next bit is the cop kicking down the door... maybe it was one of those Cops-style reality shows.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#93

Post by J_Shelby_J »

verditelabs wrote: post #46

In my native Texan English, "y'all" can certainly act as a singular polite "you" (EDIT: though it is not terribly common). I often use "Howdy, how y'all doin?" as a polite greeting to people I don't know regardless of the number of people I am addressing, though switch to just "you" after making acquaintance. Funny enough, "howdy" is a contraction of the older "how do ye" and some people still consider it both a gree…

Y’all is a perfectly cromulent gender neutral way to address a group of people in a professional setting.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#94

Post by mewpmewp2 »

netsharc wrote: post #92
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #68

I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know. Maybe I should completely ditch it, and use the informal one with everyone new, just with the hopes of building immediate rapport. I must not be the only one to hate it, and surely those people who would mind me using the informal one are not…

German also has the 2 levels, but addressing the police with the informal you might get you into trouble. There's a great clip (not sure if it's a sketch show or a 360p mobile phone recording) of a guy peeking out of his apartment door and seeing a lot of coos, and he says to one of them, "Piss off, you (informal) asshole!." . The cop says "excuse me?", and the guy responds with, "Ah, sorry, you (formal) asshole!". T…

That's funny. But yeah, if someone has an authority over me like that, I wouldn't ever dare. It's mostly a question I guess when speaking to people I'm doing business/service with.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#95

Post by NewsyHacker »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #44
082349872349872 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they not like the feminine connection between "lei" and "Lei"? Or what was the motivation?

Afaik it was because the “Lei” was considered elitist and because in the roman latin culture they had only the “tu” up to caesar introduced the “voi”, so maybe you know fascists had some sort of fetish for the roman empire so they chose to bring the culture as close as possible closer to what roman culture was

Caesar didn't "introduce the voi". Is this an urban myth that Italians believe? The tu/vous distinction in Romance languages arose in medieval times. Not only did it not exist in Caesar's time, it is absent from the centuries of Imperial-era literature in Latin.

There is a wide literature on Latin forms of address. Eleanor Dickey's monograph published by Oxford University Press is a good survey.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#96

Post by biorach »

NewsyHacker wrote: post #70
tibbydudeza wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or King James Bible - some Christians stick to the original translation (1611).

Why do you think the KJV is the "original translation"? As far as English translations of Scripture go, it was preceded by the Wycliffe Bible. And a translation of the Gospels was produced in the Old English era.

While technically true this is somewhat pedantic, the KJV was the first vernacular translation to be widely available in the English speaking world and is a hugely influential text for literary English, so just take "original" here in a metaphoric sense.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#97

Post by panarky »

flappyeagle wrote: post #85
majormajor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the 17th century, thou fell into disuse in the standard language" Why would that need to be common knowledge 3-400 years later then?

Because there are many still-popular and important literary works like those of Shakespeare and the King James Bible which benefit from understanding the distinction.

For most of my life I've quietly despised the people in the church of my youth for switching to thee/thou/thy in public prayers. I always thought this was grandstanding performance of piety, or cargo cult mumbo jumbo, or both.

It just seemed so silly to think that God only understands archaic English.

Now it turns out these people I despised were only being respectful, and trying to use the formal forms?

However, since it seems that "thee" and "thou" were actually the informal forms of "you" in 17th century English, now I'm really confused why they suddenly started talking this way the moment they crossed the threshold of the church.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#99

Post by brnt »

NewsyHacker wrote: post #76
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #68

I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know. Maybe I should completely ditch it, and use the informal one with everyone new, just with the hopes of building immediate rapport. I must not be the only one to hate it, and surely those people who would mind me using the informal one are not…

If negotiating the tu / vous distinction takes major mental effort, are you on the spectrum? Difficulty with understanding social cues and (these distinctions are also about creating distance) other people’s space is a typical trait of autism. These linguistic innovations wouldn't spread – and often quickly, within a couple of generations – if the neurotypical masses found them burdensome. I'm in a country with this…

In the Netherlands, it is very regional whether or not you use the polite form. In the capital region, it is not used, and use is a signifier you are from the countryside, if your accent wasn't enough. There are courses on how to get rid of your accent (or rather, get one of the capital region), and ceasing the employ of the polite form is featured.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#100

Post by MeImCounting »

majormajor wrote: post #77
dwheeler wrote: post #24

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou This should be common knowledge for native English speakers. It's hard to read Shakespeare without knowing this. But for non-native speaker, this would be mysterious.

"In the 17th century, thou fell into disuse in the standard language" Why would that need to be common knowledge 3-400 years later then?

Shakespeare, Chaucer, Bronte, Cervantes etc. Unless youre suggesting knowledge of classic literature shouldnt be common?
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