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Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

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Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#81

Post by verditelabs »

pruetj wrote: post #72
verditelabs wrote: post #46

In my native Texan English, "y'all" can certainly act as a singular polite "you" (EDIT: though it is not terribly common). I often use "Howdy, how y'all doin?" as a polite greeting to people I don't know regardless of the number of people I am addressing, though switch to just "you" after making acquaintance. Funny enough, "howdy" is a contraction of the older "how do ye" and some people still consider it both a gree…

Interesting on the “y’all”. I’m a Texan and have never addressed a singular person as y’all. If I do address a person as y’all as in “How are y’all doing?”, it’s assumed I’m speaking of the family unit that person belongs to rather than the individual. While we Texans might find it polite or friendly, in the corporate world I’ve been told to avoid using it in emails.

I think you're right about the implicit group/family aspect in many cases. If I'm taking to one friend and say "how are y'all doing" then that friend's family or ingroup is certainly implied in the question.

The singular polite "y'all" I'm referring to is generally used when the other party is not known. F.ex. I regularly, though certainly not always, hear clerks, waiters, or other service industry workers using "y'all" singularly when asking "what can I get y'all to eat" or "y'all need anything else" when speaking to exactly one person, and I use it that way myself.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#82

Post by biztos »

hilbert42 wrote: post #59

Afterthought: the post below illustrates the paucity of modern English in that nowadays in modern English no distinction is made between the second and third person 'you' whereas in other languages such as German it still is. __ I've mentioned on HN previously when discussing languages that when my father was learning German his old textbook had the English thee, thou, and thine/thy as the second person for the Germa…

> it is reserved for the closest of relationships such as family, lovers etc.

You use du for your friends, your classmates, people your own age up through about college, and anyone you think you are or should be on informal terms with. Such as shop workers (sometimes), bartenders (usually), waiters (depending on location), random people in the street (in places like Berlin, if they're not senior citizens), and anyone -- regardless of age or station -- who has said du to you first, unless you want to very specifically snub them. You use du with people you play Fußball against even if you've never met them before and they're ten years older than you. Same with drinking. It would, perhaps counterintuitively, be rude to use Sie in many social situations involving complete strangers. Unless they're old.

Then there is the ritual, rarely followed anymore, of actually formally suggesting that you and someone else -- usually a work colleague -- use du with each other... and refusing that request is giving a very cold shoulder, there normally would not be another offer in one lifetime. (An "inferior" should not suggest it to his/her "superior," that would also be inappropriate.)

Du does enough work in German as she is spoke, I don't think it makes sense for foreigners to learn the Sie form before having proper facility with all the du grammar. Given the immigration trends of the last 20 years, people will just be happy to hear German in the first place. Then learn to properly siezen when you're already conversational. My zwo Pfennig anyway.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#83

Post by zirgs »

baxtr wrote: post #48
dwheeler wrote: post #24

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou This should be common knowledge for native English speakers. It's hard to read Shakespeare without knowing this. But for non-native speaker, this would be mysterious.

According to the article “you” was formal and “thou” informal.

Yes - and this is how it is in a lot of other Indo-European languages too.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#84

Post by mewpmewp2 »

NewsyHacker wrote: post #76
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #68

I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know. Maybe I should completely ditch it, and use the informal one with everyone new, just with the hopes of building immediate rapport. I must not be the only one to hate it, and surely those people who would mind me using the informal one are not…

If negotiating the tu / vous distinction takes major mental effort, are you on the spectrum? Difficulty with understanding social cues and (these distinctions are also about creating distance) other people’s space is a typical trait of autism. These linguistic innovations wouldn't spread – and often quickly, within a couple of generations – if the neurotypical masses found them burdensome. I'm in a country with this…

I had a psychologist diagnose me, and I was almost on the spectrum according to the test (with points), but not quite to give me the diagnosis. Obviously the questionnaires are ambiguous with their questions enough to have so many different ways of interpreting the questions that to me makes many of those questions non-sensical in the first place. But actually, I have been to mental institutions multiple times, and in many cases the evaluators have mentioned "autistic tendencies". In the end - am I on the spectrum? I don't know, but I still would feel like I would benefit from it if I would just try to make a joke and then become warm and call them with the informal and singular "you" in my language. I hope it could show that we are all in this together.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#85

Post by flappyeagle »

majormajor wrote: post #77
dwheeler wrote: post #24

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou This should be common knowledge for native English speakers. It's hard to read Shakespeare without knowing this. But for non-native speaker, this would be mysterious.

"In the 17th century, thou fell into disuse in the standard language" Why would that need to be common knowledge 3-400 years later then?

Because there are many still-popular and important literary works like those of Shakespeare and the King James Bible which benefit from understanding the distinction.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#86

Post by t8sr »

hilbert42 wrote: post #59

Afterthought: the post below illustrates the paucity of modern English in that nowadays in modern English no distinction is made between the second and third person 'you' whereas in other languages such as German it still is. __ I've mentioned on HN previously when discussing languages that when my father was learning German his old textbook had the English thee, thou, and thine/thy as the second person for the Germa…

Interesting. I learned German in Switzerland and the only people who ever use sie are all over 50. Everyone you meet is addressed as du, except maybe in formal letters.

I’m wondering if some weird looks I sometimes get in Germany might be because of that. Is “sie” used more commonly there?

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#87

Post by biztos »

hinkley wrote: post #45

For flowery speech we escalate to sentence fragments. Your Grace, Your Eminence, Madam President, Your Honor. Or honorifics in front of or around proper names, like Mister Rogers, Doctor House, Nurse Ratched (anarchic now, the doctors have one that PR campaign) or “General Granger, Sir”. There are some parliamentary ones that pretty much only show on in Congress and on CSPAN.

And my favorite one (in UK): Governor!

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#88

Post by atoav »

konschubert wrote: post #23
Tomte wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's "Sie", not "sie", and therefore not identical to third person.

That’s just spelling.

In a German sentence a change in capitalization of Sie can very well turn a "formal you" (Sie) into a more general "them" (sie). So it is not just spelling, although it is a very common mistake.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#89

Post by verditelabs »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #73
bxparks wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, wat? I always thought that "y'all" was a contraction of "you all", so meant the "plural you" instead of the "singular you".

I think you have to say “all y’all” for the plural.

For me, "y'all" has multiple forms

"y'all" - explicitly addressing >1 person

"y'all" - explicitly addressing 1 person while implicitly addressing >1 people. I might say "how y'all doin" to a friend, implying "how are you and your family doing"

"all y'all" - >>1 person or addressing >1 person that was not included in the previous "y'all"

"y'all" - explicitly and implicitly addressing 1 person whom I have not made acquaintance with. If I were working as a server in a restaurant and had a single person come in, I may address them with "y'all". "What can I get y'all?" is the same as "what can I get you?" but the "y'all" gives it some extra politeness or an "emphatic southern accent"

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#90

Post by blowski »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #68

I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know. Maybe I should completely ditch it, and use the informal one with everyone new, just with the hopes of building immediate rapport. I must not be the only one to hate it, and surely those people who would mind me using the informal one are not…

> it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know

The issue still comes up, but in different ways. To a friend I might say "Where's the nearest cashpoint?", but to a stranger I'd say "Excuse me, but would you happen to know where I could find the nearest cashpoint, please".

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