Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

english.stackexchange.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 441 posts

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#21

Post by mgbmtl »

Geisterde wrote: post #8
propter_hoc wrote: post #7

Second person pronouns are so fascinating! Not only is "you" the formal, polite plural form, but calling someone "thou" was also seen as so informal as to be rude (in verb form, to "thou" someone). This has a modern equivalent in the term "tutoyer" in French. https://www.etymonline.com/word/thou An interesting counterpoint is the usage in Japanese of sarcastically polite forms like お前 and 貴様, where you use a pronoun…

Shipmate is used to describe someone who you crew a ship with, such as in the navy, and is supposed to convey comradery. E xcept in its real world use, where its the social equivalent of referring to someone as "s**head".

I guess like "comrade", any kind of imposed social norm becomes an object of satire?

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#22

Post by rayiner »

propter_hoc wrote: post #7

Second person pronouns are so fascinating! Not only is "you" the formal, polite plural form, but calling someone "thou" was also seen as so informal as to be rude (in verb form, to "thou" someone). This has a modern equivalent in the term "tutoyer" in French. https://www.etymonline.com/word/thou An interesting counterpoint is the usage in Japanese of sarcastically polite forms like お前 and 貴様, where you use a pronoun…

That’s fascinating. In Bangla, “thui” is the very informal second person pronoun (like what am older sibling would say to a younger sibling).

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#23

Post by konschubert »

Tomte wrote: post #11
k__ wrote: post #6

In German, we use "sie" the German equivalent of "they". Thus, to be polite, you address someone as many people that aren't part of the conversation.

No, it's "Sie", not "sie", and therefore not identical to third person.

That’s just spelling.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#25

Post by selimthegrim »

propter_hoc wrote: post #7

Second person pronouns are so fascinating! Not only is "you" the formal, polite plural form, but calling someone "thou" was also seen as so informal as to be rude (in verb form, to "thou" someone). This has a modern equivalent in the term "tutoyer" in French. https://www.etymonline.com/word/thou An interesting counterpoint is the usage in Japanese of sarcastically polite forms like お前 and 貴様, where you use a pronoun…

See also https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeten#Middle_English (Etymology 2), where ye (and yeet[!]) were its descendants (to ye someone was a thing as well)

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#26

Post by aqme28 »

Tomte wrote: post #11
k__ wrote: post #6

In German, we use "sie" the German equivalent of "they". Thus, to be polite, you address someone as many people that aren't part of the conversation.

No, it's "Sie", not "sie", and therefore not identical to third person.

Not to be confused with "sie", which means "she"

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#27

Post by 082349872349872 »

pavlov wrote: post #17
propter_hoc wrote: post #7

Second person pronouns are so fascinating! Not only is "you" the formal, polite plural form, but calling someone "thou" was also seen as so informal as to be rude (in verb form, to "thou" someone). This has a modern equivalent in the term "tutoyer" in French. https://www.etymonline.com/word/thou An interesting counterpoint is the usage in Japanese of sarcastically polite forms like お前 and 貴様, where you use a pronoun…

Interestingly the formality ladder flips at the very top of the hierarchy. Kings and popes must be addressed diffusely with plurals and layered references to official status (“Your Imperial Majesty”), but the Christian God above them is a “thou” in every European language. (Useless trivia bit… Apparently Emperor Charles V invented the styling of “His Majesty”. Before him, kings and emperors were addressed as highness…

That's because the english notion of informal/formal is a poor fit for the modern, symmetric use of T-V.

It's more of a social distance, with V-form for people outside the personal sphere, and T-form for people outside the public sphere.

So, as an atheist, I'd use V-form* with the Christian God, but His Believers really ought to be using T-form with Him.

* Si vous plaît, j'aimerais bien savior comment fonctionne la turbulence ... mais ne vous inquiétez pas si l'explication serait trop compliqué !

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#29

Post by Caligatio »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #2

Thee and Thou are still used in Northern England (Yorkshire and Lancashire). Although probably only by older people and often spoken as Thi and Tha.

I feel like this must be fading because I lived in North Yorkshire for almost 5 years and never heard a thee/thou used. On the other hand, English dialects are hyper localized so there might be villages where it is normal.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)

#30

Post by helsinkiandrew »

eyphka wrote: post #3
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #2

Thee and Thou are still used in Northern England (Yorkshire and Lancashire). Although probably only by older people and often spoken as Thi and Tha.

Interesting, and are those used as the informal you? Or in reference to singular?

I think Thee would be for family, friends, or someone of equal social status and thou is more formal (but much less used now - only as tha: “tha's gonna get it“).
Post reply on HN