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Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

usatoday.com

101–110 of 110 posts

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#101

There's no way to make a diesel or gasoline car that's not actively bad for the environment. Electric is the only way. (And maybe hydrogen, but that's quite a ways off)

Modern gasoline vehicles don't really release noxious emissions, at least if they are well maintained. Of course CO2 is not benign, but electric and hydrogen will also have CO2 emissions at this point, just further up the supply chain for the energy.

Depending on where you are there could be a huge difference. For me it’s a CO2e reduction of >99%.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#103
post #54
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC other manufacturers would detect the usage pattern of tests and run cleaner as a form of bypass. Similarly you could lie on the OC2 response.

Sure, I know what other manufacturers did. I want to know the technical details of what Cummins allegedly did "enough that they're not arguing a massive fine, while claiming they didn't do it on purpose." Claiming they "installed defeat devices" isn't nearly enough detail. How did it alter either the engine combustion cycle or the emissions control system behavior?

Most likely they've been caught with memos saying to install a device that would trick past the test. It doesn't really matter what the devices did on an engineering level or even whether they worked at all, and the regulator may not even know or care; the hard part in a case like this tends to be showing criminal intent.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engine computers can easily be reprogrammed to make the engine run at all sorts of different operating bands. You could easily detect state emissions equipment, since it must pull information from the ECU. To me- these devices are either pre-programmed operating modes that produce clean emissions but the vehicle would not operate under this tune (emissions testing is often not under load) and so once back on the road…

VW's detected emissions testing when the steering wheel was never turned.

[deleted]

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#106
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An electric car is bad for the environment (described generally, not in the laser-focused "CO2 emissions are the only thing that matters!" modern sense) in almost all the same ways an ICE vehicle is, just with a reduction in runtime carbon emissions No it isn't. You can charge them entirely with renewable sources (or nuclear), reducing traditional air pollutants in addition to CO2. This is even true when still usin…

You're looking at the problem from a purely "atmospheric emissions" perspective. Think about things like "wildlife disruption from a car-centric culture with lots of roads," "microplastics from tires," etc. All of those can very reasonably be considered "environmental effects of cars," if you want to take a broader view of the problems. Renewable energy sources also have their own impacts on the environment - the min…

> Think about things like "wildlife disruption from a car-centric culture with lots of roads,"

But now you're making a context-specific argument. It's not about the car, it's about where you put the roads. And then you have to weigh that against alternatives. If you replace cars with buses, you still need roads. Trains need tracks etc.

> "microplastics from tires," etc.

But this isn't any worse than ICE cars. Making some things better and some things the same is a net improvement.

And you could conceivably address this by making tires out of something else regardless of what kind of powertrain you're using.

> One may reasonably argue that these are less important impacts than CO2 emissions, and make one's arguments (I think quite reasonably so), but to round all these to zero for renewables is dishonest, at best.

It doesn't have to be zero if it's less than the cost of oil exploration, production, refining and distribution, which is the status quo.

> The same goes for the amount of mining required for the raw uranium to be refined into nuclear fuel - quite a bit of earth has to be extracted and processed to get the fuel quantity. Again, I think it's lower impact than fossil fuels, but it's certainly not zero - by quite a large amount.

The difference between the energy content per kg of burning oil and fissioning uranium is literally more than a factor of a million. The amount of uranium you need by comparison is basically zero.

> "Because the cars weigh about the same, they have the same production impact," when one has a thousand pounds of lithium ion battery pack.

Lithium battery packs are only a single digit percentage lithium by weight. The lithium isn't a large proportion of the mass of the vehicle. The largest component of the mass of the battery is typically graphite, followed by aluminum.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engine computers can easily be reprogrammed to make the engine run at all sorts of different operating bands. You could easily detect state emissions equipment, since it must pull information from the ECU. To me- these devices are either pre-programmed operating modes that produce clean emissions but the vehicle would not operate under this tune (emissions testing is often not under load) and so once back on the road…

VW's detected emissions testing when the steering wheel was never turned.

Is that what it was?

I though it was when the car is on a dyno only the drive wheels turn while the other 2 are stationary.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VW's detected emissions testing when the steering wheel was never turned.

Is that what it was? I though it was when the car is on a dyno only the drive wheels turn while the other 2 are stationary.

You are correct, the steering wheel approach is very smart... all I was suggesting was that dyno testing would limit the ability to defeat, but testing stations would also need to simulate more of the vehicles systems.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early OBD2 downstream O2 defeats were a simple astable timer (and, for some cars, a power resistor to simulated the heater draw). The state testing in most states now is ‘make sure the ECU is reporting “READY” and has no emissions-related codes set.’ Since the advent of OBD2, it’s become rare for a state inspection to run the vehicle live for the purpose of emissions testing. Plugging in the OBD2 scanner is way faste…

Notable, however, California, the largest vehicle market by some margin, still requires sniffer tests.

* for vehicles model year 1999 and older, not more modern ones.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#110
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early OBD2 downstream O2 defeats were a simple astable timer (and, for some cars, a power resistor to simulated the heater draw). The state testing in most states now is ‘make sure the ECU is reporting “READY” and has no emissions-related codes set.’ Since the advent of OBD2, it’s become rare for a state inspection to run the vehicle live for the purpose of emissions testing. Plugging in the OBD2 scanner is way faste…

Notable, however, California, the largest vehicle market by some margin, still requires sniffer tests.

Only on older cars, which do not have OBDII. OBDI and before that require a sniffer. OBDII has enough sensors that the sniffer isnt needed. Am in CA, and only my foxbody ever got a sniff test. All of my other (newer) cars, the sniffer wasnt used
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