Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

usatoday.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 110 posts

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#91

Post by spacecadet »

spacecadet wrote: post #90
KennyBlanken wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturers were doing this well before OBD2. They'd look for a condition where the car was started and then idle raised and held raised, for example. Once things like CANBUS became popular, as well as ECUs getting integrated with ABS/traction control, they'd look for drive wheels spinning and but not undriven wheels. When stability control systems became a thing, they could monitor steering angle and look for the…

Yup, and I would argue most are not even doing the tuning, Bosch ECUs come pre-mapped to the FI system selected for the application. Maybe some performance models or chassis builders modify in house, but think of all the shared platforms used by all the big and now consolidated automakers...

I mean, I can tell you first hand how easy it is to trick an OBDII emissions test just by messing with the ground wires associated to the O2 sensors and bam, you have different values being report by O2...

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#92

Post by bigallen »

spacecadet wrote: post #91
spacecadet wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, and I would argue most are not even doing the tuning, Bosch ECUs come pre-mapped to the FI system selected for the application. Maybe some performance models or chassis builders modify in house, but think of all the shared platforms used by all the big and now consolidated automakers...

I mean, I can tell you first hand how easy it is to trick an OBDII emissions test just by messing with the ground wires associated to the O2 sensors and bam, you have different values being report by O2...

Wouldn’t the state emissions system throw an error if a vehicle’s O2 sensor was reading 0/null?

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#93

Post by spacecadet »

bigallen wrote: post #92
spacecadet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I can tell you first hand how easy it is to trick an OBDII emissions test just by messing with the ground wires associated to the O2 sensors and bam, you have different values being report by O2...

Wouldn’t the state emissions system throw an error if a vehicle’s O2 sensor was reading 0/null?

I cant speak for very recent systems, but they are not binary, the ECU expects a range of voltage readings...

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#94

Post by calamari4065 »

Syonyk wrote: post #5

Is there any detailed information anyone can find on what they allegedly did, at a technical level? "Defeat device" is such a broad category of term that it's useless for understanding the details of what it's claimed they did. The Justice.gov writeup [0] isn't any better. > The company allegedly installed defeat devices on 630,000 model year 2013 to 2019 RAM 2500 and 3500 pickup truck engines. The company also alleg…

It's actually surprising to me just how differently an engine can perform with different tuning. The ECU can control all sorts of parameters depending on the engine. Things like fuel/air mix, ignition timing, valve timing, shutting down some cylinders, skipping ignition cycles, a lot more than you'd ever expect.

You can tune an engine to sound like a braap braap muscle car or have it be nearly silent. You can burn all your fuel to get a few more horses or blow black smoke, or you can tune it to consume no fuel, emit nothing, and produce nearly no torque.

Plenty of people tune their engines with aftermarket kit and/or software. There are even simple plug and play kits of extremely dubious quality any average Joe can install.

What these defeat devices do is detect the testing equipment or conditions and tunes the engine in a way that meets requirements. Once the vehicle is out of testing, it reverts to the factory tuning which usually gives more power at the cost of illegally high emissions.

That's really all it is, there's not too much magic involved. Just simple cheating.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#95

Post by sokoloff »

bigallen wrote: post #92
spacecadet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I can tell you first hand how easy it is to trick an OBDII emissions test just by messing with the ground wires associated to the O2 sensors and bam, you have different values being report by O2...

Wouldn’t the state emissions system throw an error if a vehicle’s O2 sensor was reading 0/null?

Early OBD2 downstream O2 defeats were a simple astable timer (and, for some cars, a power resistor to simulated the heater draw).

The state testing in most states now is ‘make sure the ECU is reporting “READY” and has no emissions-related codes set.’

Since the advent of OBD2, it’s become rare for a state inspection to run the vehicle live for the purpose of emissions testing. Plugging in the OBD2 scanner is way faster, cheaper, more convenient, safer, and easier (albeit slightly) on the car than using a dyno.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#96

Post by archi42 »

dan12ha wrote: post #52
4wsn wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A combination of factors; cost, customer expectations, and convenience. It's easy to produce a lot of power, it's not easy to do so reliably and within emissions specs. That's where the cost comes in, and where customer expectations come in. If VW is going to be offering a 110 kW 2.0 liter engine, well, Mercedes-Benz can't come in and offer a 90 kW 2.0 liter engine just to meet specs. At the end of the day, margins a…

I’m in the UK. We have AdBlu pumps in the gas station. Just fill up fuel and AdBlu at the same time, it’s really easy.

I think I've seen those pumps here in Germany as well, and I'm pretty sure you can get AdBlue in canisters (I have one in the basement that I forgot putting back into a rental).

Yes, this (plus that the whole thing is more convenient than filling up the washer fluid) makes the whole "we don't want the customer to fill it up" even more absurd.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#97

Post by twisteriffic »

LiquidPolymer wrote: post #78

I have an old Dodge Ram with a Cummins 12 valve engine. The next generation version of my same truck came with a 24 valve engine and more emissions controls. The 24 valve Cummins engine is famous for the ability to re-tune and "delete" features on the engine for better performance and dirtier emissions. The 12 valve I own only needs a screwdriver to change the fuel mix and increase horsepower. These engines are consi…

The VP44 24v didn't have any more emissions controls than the 12v in the traditional sense. No cat, no DPF, no EGR. It just ran cleaner because of tighter control on injection timing and volume due to the switch from a purely mechanical pump/injectors to electromechanical pump in the VP44, then to fully electronically controlled injectors in the common rail after 2002.

This change to electronic control is what made dial-your-horsepower and emissions skirting like this so trivial.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#98

Post by TylerE »

sokoloff wrote: post #95
bigallen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t the state emissions system throw an error if a vehicle’s O2 sensor was reading 0/null?

Early OBD2 downstream O2 defeats were a simple astable timer (and, for some cars, a power resistor to simulated the heater draw). The state testing in most states now is ‘make sure the ECU is reporting “READY” and has no emissions-related codes set.’ Since the advent of OBD2, it’s become rare for a state inspection to run the vehicle live for the purpose of emissions testing. Plugging in the OBD2 scanner is way faste…

Notable, however, California, the largest vehicle market by some margin, still requires sniffer tests.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#99

Post by TylerE »

Scoundreller wrote: post #71
KennyBlanken wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturers were doing this well before OBD2. They'd look for a condition where the car was started and then idle raised and held raised, for example. Once things like CANBUS became popular, as well as ECUs getting integrated with ABS/traction control, they'd look for drive wheels spinning and but not undriven wheels. When stability control systems became a thing, they could monitor steering angle and look for the…

> Tuners knew all about this shit because they disassembled ECU code and looked at ROM formats. They could point you right to the table used for when the ECU thought it was undergoing emissions testing. I guess the EPAs awards aren’t that great. I wonder if they also run cars sloppy when it detects something that resembles a drive-cycle for fuel economy testing. e.g. Stop charging battery. Limit A/C or turn on mild h…

The fuel tests basically already do all that as protocol. Accesories off. Accelerations are specified and extremely low (I think it was something like 30 seconds to accelerate from 35 to 55).

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#100

Post by SigmundA »

4wsn wrote: post #12
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #4

VW did it Renault probably did it These guys probably did I think there was a point where regulators said "diesel puts out lung damaging levels of pollutants killing X people a year. We shall either ban diesel engines ... or make manufacturers make diesel engines that don't pollute that badly" So they set a safe level. And no manufacturer has been able to achieve the technology to meet that level. I know some manufac…

I know this is a popular take, but the blindspot is commercial engines. > bypass emissions sensors on 630,000 RAM pickup truck engines In this case, and in nearly _every report of a scandal_, the issue is with passenger vehicle engines, not commercial vehicle engines. Diesel engines can be engineered to meet emissions requirements without cheating, they just aren't except for commercial use.

Not surprising, the commercial version of the ISB in question only goes up to 360hp rating, usually they run 300 or 340 hp. The commercial versions all have SCR (Urea Injection) along with DPF an EGR.

In the pickup it's rated 400 hp. I wouldn't be surprised if in the pursuit of HP / Torque to keep up with Ford and Chevy's diesels they cut corners on the emissions. The hotter you run diesel the more powerful it gets, the leaner the more efficient it gets, hot and lean makes NOx in the combustion chamber from oxygen and nitrogen, the more NOX the more SCR you need to reduce it back in the exhaust.

Post reply on HN