Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say • Hacker News Board

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#51

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:32 PM UTC

wannacboatmovie wrote: post #42

AmVess wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transition to what, exactly? Pixie dust? Unicorn farts? There's nothing to transition to .

Not to mention that they're often burning stuff behind the curtain to power the non-burning stuff . As long as it's out of sight it's okay.

It's still an improvement if the large place that burns stuff extracts more energy than tons of small places burning stuff. Not to mention, it's easier to then replace the few large places that burn stuff with something cleaner than having to replace every single car on the road again.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#52

Post by dan12ha » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:33 PM UTC

4wsn wrote: post #45

fragmede wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Are the parts necessary to meet emissions requirements extra expensive and so are only worth installing on commercial vehicles which are more expensive, vs passenger vehicles have a different profit margin, or is it something else, like commerical vehicles have lower standards for noise or higher standards for maintenance?

A combination of factors; cost, customer expectations, and convenience. It's easy to produce a lot of power, it's not easy to do so reliably and within emissions specs. That's where the cost comes in, and where customer expectations come in. If VW is going to be offering a 110 kW 2.0 liter engine, well, Mercedes-Benz can't come in and offer a 90 kW 2.0 liter engine just to meet specs. At the end of the day, margins a…

I’m in the UK. We have AdBlu pumps in the gas station. Just fill up fuel and AdBlu at the same time, it’s really easy.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#53

Post by dclowd9901 » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:36 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #4

VW did it Renault probably did it These guys probably did I think there was a point where regulators said "diesel puts out lung damaging levels of pollutants killing X people a year. We shall either ban diesel engines ... or make manufacturers make diesel engines that don't pollute that badly" So they set a safe level. And no manufacturer has been able to achieve the technology to meet that level. I know some manufac…

I think everyone was doing it. After VW got caught, literally every other foreign car maker pulled all diesel models out of the US market. The only manufacturers still selling diesel here are domestic (and maybe MB’s Sprinter?), and that’s only because 10,000 lb GVWR diesel vehicles are allowed to bypass emissions.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#54

Post by Syonyk » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

Guvante wrote: post #18

Syonyk wrote: post #5

Is there any detailed information anyone can find on what they allegedly did, at a technical level? "Defeat device" is such a broad category of term that it's useless for understanding the details of what it's claimed they did. The Justice.gov writeup [0] isn't any better. > The company allegedly installed defeat devices on 630,000 model year 2013 to 2019 RAM 2500 and 3500 pickup truck engines. The company also alleg…

IIRC other manufacturers would detect the usage pattern of tests and run cleaner as a form of bypass. Similarly you could lie on the OC2 response.

Sure, I know what other manufacturers did.

I want to know the technical details of what Cummins allegedly did "enough that they're not arguing a massive fine, while claiming they didn't do it on purpose."

Claiming they "installed defeat devices" isn't nearly enough detail. How did it alter either the engine combustion cycle or the emissions control system behavior?

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#55

Post by kadoban » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

wannacboatmovie wrote: post #26

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #4

VW did it Renault probably did it These guys probably did I think there was a point where regulators said "diesel puts out lung damaging levels of pollutants killing X people a year. We shall either ban diesel engines ... or make manufacturers make diesel engines that don't pollute that badly" So they set a safe level. And no manufacturer has been able to achieve the technology to meet that level. I know some manufac…

Is this a side effect of impossible regulations put in place by bureaucrats with no technical background whatsoever? The same ones that declared everyone will be driving EVs by 2030.

The regulations are very possible, proven by the "meet the emisions regulations" mode that then gets turned off during normal operation.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#56

Post by thelastgallon » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

Air pollution kills 10 million/year[1]. All the legacy carmakers + fossil fuel companies are responsible for this. Nearly all the big car manufactures have done this[2-6], and probably continue to do so, these small fines are not a deterrent, just cost of business.

1) Air Pollution Kills 10 Million People a Year. Why Do We Accept That as Normal?https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/opinion/environment/air-p...

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

3) ICCT and ADAC showed the biggest deviations from Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal

4) “Disguise, defeat and deny:” Toyota loses appeal and must pay $1.3bln for dodgy diesel filters: https://thedriven.io/2023/03/28/disguise-defeat-and-deny-toy...

5) Mercedez-Benz faces over 300,000 UK claims over diesel emissions: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/merced...

6) Daimler to Settle U.S. Emissions Charges for $2.2 Billion: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/business/daimler-emission...

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#57

Post by Syonyk » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:43 PM UTC

orenlindsey wrote: post #41

There's no way to make a diesel or gasoline car that's not actively bad for the environment. Electric is the only way. (And maybe hydrogen, but that's quite a ways off)

An electric car is bad for the environment (described generally, not in the laser-focused "CO2 emissions are the only thing that matters!" modern sense) in almost all the same ways an ICE vehicle is, just with a reduction in runtime carbon emissions, and with quite a bit more mining going into the raw materials.

Hydrogen, meanwhile, is nonsensical in every way you care to look at the problem, unless you look at it through the lens of "petrochemical suppliers who want to ensure that a future vehicle fleet needs to fill up at stations they supply with fuel that can be rapidly delivered in a 5 minute window." And maybe shipping, but even there, I think metal-air batteries that are smelted for recharging are likely to work better. And that's before you get into what a devious little pain in the ass hydrogen is to deal with at a chemical/technical level.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#58

Post by e28eta » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

junofan wrote: post #50

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #20

> The company does not admit wrongdoing and says no one in the company acted in bad faith Fuck me, though, right? I know the government can't do it, but this kind of statement itself should merit some kind of additional punishment.

I mean, we don’t have any details yet. What if the “defeat device” is something like “if $SENSOR is reading a little high, turn on service light and operate as normal otherwise” As a customer I’d be pissed if my truck wouldn’t run.

Not going to pass an emissions test with a service light on. But I agree that more details are necessary before we can know that the statement is false.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#59

Post by spacecadet » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

treyd wrote: post #38

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is wild to me that OEM's can straight up include tech to defeat emissions testing and be allowed to continue building engines after that is found. Like, all regulators should operate from the assumption that the entities they're regulating are working in good faith: but once it's been demonstrated they are not, how can you ever trust a product they produce again? They and every other company found to be doing this…

Yet another reason the software running on these automotive systems should be free and open source. It would be great to see the control logic and know that it's doing the right thing.

This right here. The hardware and software should be open to public scrutiny, so that experienced practitioners can explore and weigh in.

Re: Cummins pickup truck engines tricked air quality controls, feds say

#60

Post by recursive » Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

AmVess wrote: post #27

chrismartin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One more reason it's time to transition away from burning stuff to produce energy.

Transition to what, exactly? Pixie dust? Unicorn farts? There's nothing to transition to .

It's probably ok if the burning is happening off-planet, like on the sun.