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Tech's DEI backlash is here

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Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#181

Post by nvm0n2 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #170
minerva23 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> diverse candidate Even though some people would call me that, I've always hated that term/ideology. I wish companies would shift their mindset to, "a candidate that adds to our diversity". E.g. my current employer has done a really good job at not discriminating too much against women and attracting women, so we're well above industry average in our woman:NB:man ratio so it's more representative of the source popul…

> > We have already selected a male candidate for the internship so it'd be best if the next one was a woman > This is both true and legal Absolutely not. Using any protected class (race, gender, religion, disability, etc.) in hiring decisions is illegal unless this is a bona fide occupational qualification [1]. You can deliberately hire a Black person to play Frederick Douglass in a move. You cannot deliberately hir…

The other reason they hate anonymous packets is that whenever that's been implemented by them thinking the result would be more women, the result is a swing towards hiring white men. Because it turned out they were already engaging in discrimination without admitting to it or being aware of it. Word got around and now they know what the outcome would be.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#182

Post by nvm0n2 »

archagon wrote: post #115
Tommstein wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one wants to post some James Damore screed decrying the longhouse . . . . Did you read what he actually wrote, instead of just the whines of Googlers and the journalists who amplified them? I ignored the whole thing for a long time, but when I finally read it word for word out of curiosity well after the shitstorm, I thought it was one of the most reasonable and blatantly obvious things I had ever read.

Clearly, it made a number of women at the company very uncomfortable. So maybe you’re missing something.

Reality can be uncomfortable but that's no excuse for what happened.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#183

Post by nvm0n2 »

xvector wrote: post #158
unwise-exe wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> merit based DEI what even does this mean

It means you prioritize hiring diverse candidates over regular candidates, but without lowering your hiring bar.

That never happens. Once you accept the belief that you need fewer "white" men, discrimination and bar lowering always follows. Recruiters are given monetary incentives to discriminate and they find many ways to do it what claiming that they aren't. I've seen it first hand.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#184

Post by nvm0n2 »

KaiserPro wrote: post #29

I don't quite understand the anger that DEI gets, unless people assume that people are only hired because they belong to a certain group. I'm not US based, so I only see that "safe for UK" view of what $Company blast over to us. Musk and Thiel see the world in very specific ways. Because they are who they are, and the people that surround them, they will not change their view unless something drastic happens. They si…

It's not a US thing. If you think it is, you're just not being told about it by the news sources you read. Just a few days ago the head of a large UK insurance company stated directly to Parliament that she insisted on personally reviewing any attempt to hire a "non diverse" person, whilst "diverse" (i.e. non male British) could be hired more easily.

This is by far not the only such example in British life.

So this type of discrimination is rampant and out in the open. If you only read the Guardian you may not be aware of it.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#185

Post by nvm0n2 »

KaiserPro wrote: post #38
lopkeny12ko wrote: post #10

DEI as a philosophy is fundamentally flawed. Its whole premise is alleviating racism in the workplace, yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? I raised this with colleagues on a few separate ocassions and was promptly shunned, yet they didn't have an answer. Most recently when he hired an engineer from one…

> yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? yes, which is why that kind of thing is illegal in the UK. Proper DEI is about creating a decent pipeline of people, that includes outreach, or having training programmes for non-traditional juniors. And, if done properly, its a great way to lower your wage bill, as…

It's not illegal in the UK. Go read the Equality Act again. You're allowed to engage in racist and sexist discrimination if you're doing it to achieve affirmative action. That's why executives can say they discriminate against men in parliamentary testimony and nothing happens.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#186

Post by defrost »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #185
KaiserPro wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? yes, which is why that kind of thing is illegal in the UK. Proper DEI is about creating a decent pipeline of people, that includes outreach, or having training programmes for non-traditional juniors. And, if done properly, its a great way to lower your wage bill, as…

It's not illegal in the UK. Go read the Equality Act again. You're allowed to engage in racist and sexist discrimination if you're doing it to achieve affirmative action. That's why executives can say they discriminate against men in parliamentary testimony and nothing happens.

Anybody can say anything in parliamentary testimony and enjoy the protection of parliamentary freedom of speech.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/house-of-lor...

Actions outside of parliamentary testimony are not protected .. but these have to be seperately observed | evidenced as the testimony cannot be used to convict.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#187

Post by adrianN »

aydyn wrote: post #128
Manuel_D wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister, though, had been in her role for 2+ years but still only had work to keep her busy maybe 30% of the time. Similar situation with one of my past girlfriends. These were both Product Managers - I think it's less of an issue for software developers, since there's always a backlog to hack away at.

Of course, because project management isn’t a real job, and it’s almost exclusively staffed by white women. Coincidentally.

I worked with maybe half a dozen product managers and none of them were women.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#188

Post by bpicolo »

aydyn wrote: post #129
dhriekeb wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, there’s absolutely no proof that racial diversity directly benefits a company. I searched HARD for the evidence. Lots of articles claim it is true but purposely mistake correlation for causation.

There are studies that have found more women is a helpful thing in the workplace

https://hbr.org/2011/06/defend-your-research-what-makes-a-te...

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#189

Post by gmm1990 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #173
gmm1990 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just arguing from a perspective that society influences women not to go into STEM, and that's not a positive thing.

The idea that society influences women not to go into STEM is not at all clear. It's essentially just assuming that any disparity must be due to social influence. The reality is that larger male participation in STEM is universal across a wide variety of societies. There isn't a single country in the world where women make up more than 55% of STEM workers, while the vast majority of countries have fewer than 30% of w…

Interesting that different society’s have such different levels of female participation in stem. I’d view that as evidence that society heavily influences these gender participation rates.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#190

Post by KaiserPro »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #185
KaiserPro wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet its practical effect is giving certain races a favorable edge in the hiring process, independent of merit. Is this not in itself inherently racist? yes, which is why that kind of thing is illegal in the UK. Proper DEI is about creating a decent pipeline of people, that includes outreach, or having training programmes for non-traditional juniors. And, if done properly, its a great way to lower your wage bill, as…

It's not illegal in the UK. Go read the Equality Act again. You're allowed to engage in racist and sexist discrimination if you're doing it to achieve affirmative action. That's why executives can say they discriminate against men in parliamentary testimony and nothing happens.

Oh you mean:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/part/11/chapter...

Specifically outlaws having a policy of lowering the bar. You can only choose one protected character over another if they are equally qualified.

Specifically the guidance that comes with this says that its legally unwise to do anything past pipeline stage, once you have reached interviewing, its a bad idea. Its certainly something I'm not going to do.

Now, in the uk we do not have "affirmative action" thats an americanism. We do not need to import american racism issues, we have enough of our own.

I have worked in IT long enough, and recruited enough people to know that the people who complain about the "bar" generally are never privy to the actual data.

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